Soy Chicano Forums

Go Back   Soy Chicano Forums > Identity/Culture/Race/Religion > Religion

Religion Discuss your opinoins, faiths, beliefs, doubts, and/or philosophy.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #26  
Old 07-14-2013
FreedomNow's Avatar
FreedomNow FreedomNow is offline
Abstinent Attitude
Presidente
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wood!
Posts: 23,572
Default Re: The Virgin of Guadalupe question

Word.

I've never been an atheist... or considered myself that... mainly b/c of the being closed off nature of that ideology..

also, i don't bow down to science either... especially since that shit has been used to prove and justify some really fucked up shit.
__________________
If you´re not ready to die for it, put the word ´Freedom´ out of your vocabulary- El Hajj Malik Shabazz

...freedom's not a gift received from a State or a leader but a possession to be won every day by the effort of each and the union of all - Albert Camus

In the belly of misery convulses the fetus of rebellion - Ricardo Flores Magon
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-14-2013
Masaru's Avatar
Masaru Masaru is offline
Chicle
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: West Texas
Posts: 108
Send a message via MSN to Masaru
Default Re: The Virgin of Guadalupe question

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoolArrow View Post
Sure people can speculate and regurgitate the scientific findings and theories, but to keep things in perspective, we're just a few generations removed from blood letting and shit like that.
Isn't that, like, the Hispanic version of Charles Ramsey's "pretty little white girl running into a black man's arms" comment?

To keep things in perspective, the Northern Europeans are just a few more generations away from running around and homociding each other until the Catholic Church came and civilized them. (Let's not forget things like Druid human sacrifices.) And, you know, taught them better organizational skills to use in their armed conflicts. Lol. I mean, would it be fair to characterize white Europeans as a bunch of raiding marauders who set sail to pillage the first chance they got?

Might be a bad example.

Anyway, what really intrigues about the symbolism of La Virgen is that, in this community, there are a lot of people who came here from Mexico and worked very hard for what they've attained. These shrines to Guadalupe seem almost like a symbol of victory for them. There's something very vibrant in their faith even though I really don't accept it or understand how they can.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-15-2013
ChicanoDan ChicanoDan is offline
Maestro
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 3,233
Send a message via Yahoo to ChicanoDan
Default Re: The Virgin of Guadalupe question

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreedomNow View Post
I would never simply just dismiss the symbolic power the virgen or anything else that brown folks use to make it through bullshit as just colonization...

my mom goes to church every sunday... and that is her solace... her space... her relationship... i don't agree but don't just dismiss it for her and others... i think that's pretty pompous and if an academic or someone like that dismissed working class people's experiences as foolishness then folks would probably b offended/defensive bout that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoolArrow View Post
I think its arrogant to even be an Atheist. Its like being a fundamentalist but on the opposite end of the spectrum. No one knows how the universe came to be, if there is a soul, what happens to the energy that we're all made of once we die and so on. Sure people can speculate and regurgitate the scientific findings and theories, but to keep things in perspective, we're just a few generations removed from blood letting and shit like that. Its foolish to really think we're all that sophisticated at this point in our history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreedomNow View Post
Word.

I've never been an atheist... or considered myself that... mainly b/c of the being closed off nature of that ideology..

also, i don't bow down to science either... especially since that shit has been used to prove and justify some really fucked up shit.
You might feel different living in the Bible belt where the "The Good word" is used to justify everything from denying people a proper education, social services, disenfranchisement, too simple health care.

I always find it odd that to many a white person their religion is seen as a way to network and put money in their coffers.. While minority religion is about being subserviant to "god" and all his manifestations.


My answer may have been a bit pompous, but if a large group of people were to believe that thunder comes from Mt Olympus, The Sun is a chariot being driven across the day sky, Some hippie dude who drank a lot of wine was killed and came back from the dead three days later.. etc.. etc.. would my scoffing be seen as egregious?

I certainly do not mean to degrade the beliefs of people who don't and didn;t know know any better, My grandmother and mother, for instance, but in this day and age, At a certain education level and given the information available those who choose to believe do so not out of ignorance but obstenance..

As to atheism... I agree that most atheists can be just as Irritating as most evangelicals.. I would consider myself more of an agnostic with atheist leanings..

I don't know the answer.. but those who profess to know sure as shit don't either and fuck them for trying to force their anachronistic beliefs down everyones throats.

BTW .. The whole guadalupe thing does look pretty sweet on a low low if done right..
__________________
"There is nothing more rare, nor more beautiful, than a woman being unapologetically herself; comfortable in her perfect imperfection. To me, that is the true essence of beauty.”
― Steve Maraboli

"Unless she's being a total twat... Nothing rare or beautiful about that"
― chicanodan
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-15-2013
KoolArrow's Avatar
KoolArrow KoolArrow is offline
Veterano
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: West L.A/Las Vegas
Posts: 8,605
Default Re: The Virgin of Guadalupe question

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicanoDan View Post
You might feel different living in the Bible belt where the "The Good word" is used to justify everything from denying people a proper education, social services, disenfranchisement, too simple health care.
El Paso is considered the bible belt?
__________________
“The secret of happiness, you see, is not found in
seeking more, but in developing the capacity to enjoy less.”― Socrates

"They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me" - Nathaniel Lee
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-15-2013
ChicanoDan ChicanoDan is offline
Maestro
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 3,233
Send a message via Yahoo to ChicanoDan
Default Re: The Virgin of Guadalupe question

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoolArrow View Post
El Paso is considered the bible belt?
Dallas.. Pretty much anywhere in Texas where there are an over abundance of Pigmetally challenged Folk...

El Paso is a different breed stemming from All The Raza.. Even to that, the religiosity there is more in line with the kneel and pray crowd than the Love thy neighbor if they can help you grow your personal wealth crowd that we have in this area..

In Most of Texas church is big busine$$....
__________________
"There is nothing more rare, nor more beautiful, than a woman being unapologetically herself; comfortable in her perfect imperfection. To me, that is the true essence of beauty.”
― Steve Maraboli

"Unless she's being a total twat... Nothing rare or beautiful about that"
― chicanodan
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 07-15-2013
KoolArrow's Avatar
KoolArrow KoolArrow is offline
Veterano
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: West L.A/Las Vegas
Posts: 8,605
Default Re: The Virgin of Guadalupe question

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicanoDan View Post
In Most of Texas church is big busine$$....

Not different than anywhere else, I assume. I used to work for a company owned by Scientologists. I learned that there's a whole network of scientologist owned companies.
And of course Jews. Most people are probably converting for the business contacts, rather than the jokes.
__________________
“The secret of happiness, you see, is not found in
seeking more, but in developing the capacity to enjoy less.”― Socrates

"They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me" - Nathaniel Lee
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 07-15-2013
ChicanoDan ChicanoDan is offline
Maestro
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 3,233
Send a message via Yahoo to ChicanoDan
Default Re: The Virgin of Guadalupe question

I'm not so sure... Around here it's everywhere.. Gets old pretty quick..

Damn Evangelicals are fanatical about being fanatically evangelical...

4 out of the Top Ten largest "MegaChurches" Are located right here in the Great Lone Star State.. Two in the Dallas Fort Worth Metro area and two in the Houston area.

I do see that CA has it's share of the MegaChurch business, but I don;t see them taking over the legislature in the way they have here...
__________________
"There is nothing more rare, nor more beautiful, than a woman being unapologetically herself; comfortable in her perfect imperfection. To me, that is the true essence of beauty.”
― Steve Maraboli

"Unless she's being a total twat... Nothing rare or beautiful about that"
― chicanodan
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 07-15-2013
KoolArrow's Avatar
KoolArrow KoolArrow is offline
Veterano
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: West L.A/Las Vegas
Posts: 8,605
Default Re: The Virgin of Guadalupe question

I had the priviledge of growing up in a suburb that features The Bible Institute of Los Angeles aka Biola College. Very liberal, progressive environment
__________________
“The secret of happiness, you see, is not found in
seeking more, but in developing the capacity to enjoy less.”― Socrates

"They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me" - Nathaniel Lee
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 07-15-2013
Masaru's Avatar
Masaru Masaru is offline
Chicle
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: West Texas
Posts: 108
Send a message via MSN to Masaru
Default Re: The Virgin of Guadalupe question

I don't understand Catholicism in general. Growing up, religion was really associated more with superstition by me and my friends. I guess being on the agnostic atheist side is what led me to Buddhism because I do have a certain sense of experience of things that are spiritual. (And not that wussy, never hit back or eat a hamburger Buddhism, either.) But even just the Bible itself is full of too many contradictions and random acts of violence on behalf of Jehovah for me to take it seriously. Let me murder my own son so I can forgive you? I don't get it.

My great aunt tia Chita is a very religious Christian woman and a genuinely good person, and I believe that if there are literal heavenly realms she'll probably be reborn in one of them. But I don't understand how people who suffer so much can think their God favors them. Once again, this is kind of why I fascinate over things like people sporting La Virgen. I'm not sure I necessarily have any concept of what it really means to them. It's something so close to me and my roots, but it's paradoxically foreign to my way of thinking.

I have my own religious experience. They probably think I'm deceived by Satan and I think they're deluded in Samsara without a guiding light out of the fog, so I really wonder what they believe that I can recognize as being true and common ground.

...And everybody knows Texas is the huge belt buckle of the Bible Belt.

Last edited by Masaru; 07-15-2013 at 11:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 07-15-2013
KoolArrow's Avatar
KoolArrow KoolArrow is offline
Veterano
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: West L.A/Las Vegas
Posts: 8,605
Default Re: The Virgin of Guadalupe question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masaru View Post
But I don't understand how people who suffer so much can think their God favors them.
Because their riches/nirvana/bliss awaits them in heaven, as long as their righteous in this life. It keeps peasants happy to be peasants. Or at least accept it as God's will. For most people, being Catholic is just a habit. They have probably questioned the church but still keep one foot in, just to hedge their bets. Probably figure its safer to pay lip service to believing than denounce our heavenly father outright and then suffer in hell for all eternity. Eternity is a long time. So why not spend an hour a week making sure that doesnt happen? I've always seen it as some people want answers out of life and some people just want comfort. An omnipotent Father figure does a good job of providing that, for the latter. And when I think of the Bible Belt, I think of places like Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma. Texas is not what first comes to mind.
__________________
“The secret of happiness, you see, is not found in
seeking more, but in developing the capacity to enjoy less.”― Socrates

"They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me" - Nathaniel Lee

Last edited by KoolArrow; 07-15-2013 at 11:52 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 07-15-2013
ChicanoDan ChicanoDan is offline
Maestro
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 3,233
Send a message via Yahoo to ChicanoDan
Default Re: The Virgin of Guadalupe question

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoolArrow View Post
It keeps peasants happy to be peasants. Or at least accept it as God's will.
That was kind of the point I was trying to make about la Guadalupena
__________________
"There is nothing more rare, nor more beautiful, than a woman being unapologetically herself; comfortable in her perfect imperfection. To me, that is the true essence of beauty.”
― Steve Maraboli

"Unless she's being a total twat... Nothing rare or beautiful about that"
― chicanodan
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 07-15-2013
Masaru's Avatar
Masaru Masaru is offline
Chicle
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: West Texas
Posts: 108
Send a message via MSN to Masaru
Default Re: The Virgin of Guadalupe question

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoolArrow View Post
For most people, being Catholic is just a habit. They have probably questioned the church but still keep one foot in, just to hedge their bets. Probably figure its safer to pay lip service to believing than denounce our heavenly father outright and then suffer in hell for all eternity. Eternity is a long time. So why not spend an hour a week making sure that doesnt happen? I've always seen it as some people want answers out of life and some people just want comfort.
Honestly, I don't think I could live like that. I tend to go all in.

Maybe that makes sense of the people I see who pretty much seem to make it a point to be what a Christian would think of as a sinner but then turn to God when they get really low. Personally, I was given the option to think things out on my own when I was young, and at a point I figured that the tradition I got was probably just wrong in their ideas about the whole spirituality thing, not that spirituality itself is invalid.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KoolArrow View Post
when I think of the Bible Belt, I think of places like Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma. Texas is not what first comes to mind.
When most people think of a belt, they tend to think of the leather and not about the huge, hub-cap sized belt buckle on the front that apparently doubles as a detachable bullet shield in a gunfight. That belt buckle is Texas.

http://youtu.be/8mQvvGJYQaM

Last edited by Masaru; 07-15-2013 at 12:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 07-15-2013
ChicanoDan ChicanoDan is offline
Maestro
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 3,233
Send a message via Yahoo to ChicanoDan
Default Re: The Virgin of Guadalupe question

The Belt on the map

__________________
"There is nothing more rare, nor more beautiful, than a woman being unapologetically herself; comfortable in her perfect imperfection. To me, that is the true essence of beauty.”
― Steve Maraboli

"Unless she's being a total twat... Nothing rare or beautiful about that"
― chicanodan
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 07-15-2013
KoolArrow's Avatar
KoolArrow KoolArrow is offline
Veterano
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: West L.A/Las Vegas
Posts: 8,605
Default Re: The Virgin of Guadalupe question

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicanoDan View Post
That was kind of the point I was trying to make about la Guadalupena
i don't see how the Virgin is used to 'subjugate the masses' as you put it. That may be the overall goal of the church and how the Bible is used, but the character of the Virgin is pretty benign imo. I havent considered myself Catholic for many years, but there is some stuff from the religion thats now deeply embedded in who I am and how I perceive the world. For me, it has some value. I like the character of Jesus. I don't care if he's a mythological figure. I like the message he preached. I was forced into attending church in El Paso a couple of years ago, when one of my Uncles died. I find it kind of fascinating that people with Iphones in their pockets are still engaging in ancient chanting and weird shit that goes on in church (which growing up seemed normal). Its an interesting study of the complexity of human beings. The duality of being these complex organisms while still retaining a lot of primitive instincts. You may see religious people as being guillable but I see them as the same types of people that believe in partisan politics. Maybe 'faith' is hard wired in all of us. All we can do is control where we choose to place ours.
__________________
“The secret of happiness, you see, is not found in
seeking more, but in developing the capacity to enjoy less.”― Socrates

"They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me" - Nathaniel Lee
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 07-15-2013
ChicanoDan ChicanoDan is offline
Maestro
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 3,233
Send a message via Yahoo to ChicanoDan
Default Re: The Virgin of Guadalupe question

How else would you describe using a figure that is revered to propogate the churches agenda (subservency to the church hierarchy)?

I don't see the disconnect.. The church and religion in most all of its forms is meant to keep people happy with their lot in lives. The Guadalupe myth is an extension of that.

I'm with you about the message in and of itself.. the message of the Jesus dude is a good one, it's what the people (I.E. The church / religion) does to it and with it is what gets me all bothered.

I have no problem with people using their own personal security blankets in life to make them feel better. Some of us drink fornicate and watch porn to get through life others read their bible.

Difference is I wouldn't necessarily try and turn anyone else to my bad habits even if they would have more fun doing so.
I certainly wouldn't advocate them as being the one true way to achieve enlightenment and heavenly favor.
I sure as shit wouldn't presume to know that drinking fornicating and pornification makes me a better person than anyone else.. (Even though I like to think they do)
__________________
"There is nothing more rare, nor more beautiful, than a woman being unapologetically herself; comfortable in her perfect imperfection. To me, that is the true essence of beauty.”
― Steve Maraboli

"Unless she's being a total twat... Nothing rare or beautiful about that"
― chicanodan
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:33 AM.


All the comments are property of their posters. Images, logo, content and design are © copyright by SoyChicano.com. All Rights Reserved.