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  #1  
Old 10-13-2004
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Default Virgen De Guadalupe

Coatlique was re-discovered in August 13, 1790, but was later buried again.

In 1805, Bishop Benito Marin Moxo y Francoly wrote in a letter:

The statue was placed… in one of the corners of the spacious University patio, where it remained upright for some time, but in the end it was necessary to bury it once again… for a reason that none had foreseen. The Indians, who observe all the monuments of Europeans art with such stupid indifference, came with a lively curiosity to contemplate their famous statue. At first it was thought that they were moved to this by no other incentive than national pride, a characteristic of savage no less than of civilized peoples, and by the pleasure of seeing one of the most outstanding works by their ancestors, which they could see was esteemed by educated Spaniards. Nonetheless, it later came to seem that in their frequent visits there was some secret religious motive. It was thus essential to prohibit their access absolutely; but their fanatical enthusiasm and their incredible cunning made a mockery of this decision. They watched for moments when the patio would be empty of people, especially in the afternoon when, at the conclusion of the academic lessons, all the classrooms are closed. Then they would take advantage of the silence that reigns in this home of the Muses, they would leave their towers and hurry to adore their Goddess Teoyaomiqui [Coatlique]. A thousand times the beadles, returning from outside and crossing the patio on the way to their quarters, caught the Indians by surprise, some on their knees, other prostrate… before the statue, and holding in their hands burning candles and other diverse offerings of the sort their elders used to present to their idols. And these things which were done, and later observed with care by many grave and learned persons… led to the resolution, as we said, of once more placing the aforesaid statue beneath the ground.

As we see in this letter, even though the bishop is ignorant and racist, we see that our ancestors still practiced the old ways...

I could talk about it a lot, but maybe another time when I feel like it. I still need to do a lot today. I could go on and on. I remember in a class I have, a lot of people wanna hear me talk about our history.

Also read post 14, 35, 36, and 53 in this thread so you can catch up on what we discussed before.
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Last edited by tecpaocelotl; 12-07-2006 at 12:16 PM.
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  #2  
Old 10-13-2004
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for those of you who, like me, didn't know, Coatlique and Tonanzin are the same.

She later became the Virgen of Guadalupe
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  #3  
Old 10-13-2004
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ugh!!!, what a bunch of culeros!! wether it was the time it is set in that this happened or more over just the pure fact. kinda chaps my hide
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  #4  
Old 10-14-2004
ChicanoDan ChicanoDan is offline
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Sad because they are white or sad because not enough are Mexicanos?

I don't think it is such a bad thing for WHite People to be educated about our history..

It is however bad when Our own don't....
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  #5  
Old 10-14-2004
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I think to break down la virgin de guadalupe and juan diego will be in a new post. Would be very interesting bc there will be a lot of info that I found that I haven't found anyone say or what? I will not say if she's real or what, but evidence to either prove she is or she's not.
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  #6  
Old 11-29-2004
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I agree that the doctrine of la virgin
does.....
weird we agree on something about
religion so share what is the strong
hold???
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  #7  
Old 11-29-2004
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I agree.

An old man once told me that he couldn't believe the faith some people devote to la virgen de guadalupe.

In mexico city, people come from all over to visit la virgen de guadalupe. They walk great distances and some of them walk on their knees. by the end of their long voyage, their knees are bloody from having to walk on them on sharp pointy rocks.

The old man told me that God doesn't want that. He gave me a great analogy. He told me that if you saw your own kids, crawling on the floor with bloody knees, you wouldn't allow them to do that for you. You would pick them up and comfort them.

why would la virgen de guadalupe allow her children to suffer like that? Why would God allow them to suffer like that?

A good parent would not let go through that. A good parent would pick them from the floor and take them into their arms.

A very interesting and wise man he was. I met him about 3 years ago while I was in mexico. I recently learned that this man(he had no family) had passed away. I felt really sad because he so much to tell and unfortunately i didn't have enought time to learn what he had to say.

there are other great things that he made me realize that I'll try to share if the right topic comes along.

my 2cents
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  #8  
Old 11-29-2004
LaSweetThang LaSweetThang is offline
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not to be rude or anything but i understand of what that man was trying to say as to me i do not believe in Mary the mother of Jesus i do not understand why do people still call her virgen if she is no longer a virgen she had other kids after Jesus was born as to the Bible the only one we shall worship is God and we should not worship other Idols that has been made by human hands. but i guess everyone has their own believeings
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  #9  
Old 11-29-2004
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I agree with LaSweetThang

This is just another way that people will use religion to control the masses. To use something that is totally unbiblical and make people believe it because someone sometime a long time ago said it was true - and everybody believes it so.... it must be true, right???
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  #10  
Old 11-29-2004
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oh ... i thaught that was gonna be about Virgin, the company
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  #11  
Old 11-29-2004
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Maybe it is Hey tecpaocelotl where are you and are you going to reply to this thread you created???? lol
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  #12  
Old 11-29-2004
LaSweetThang LaSweetThang is offline
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sorry miguelito21 your way off you meant virgin wireless nobre
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  #13  
Old 11-29-2004
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oh that makes sense then, since it's in the identity section and not in the religion section.
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  #14  
Old 11-29-2004
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Got out of class early.

It all starts before the conquest when priest prayed to Tonantzin in her temple at Tepeyac. Tonantzin means 'our lord mother'.

After the conquest, the Spaniards destroyed her temple. From there, no one knows what happens.

Some believe the story that the church says, that a Mexica man who use to be named Cuautlizatzin, later would convert to Catholicism as Juan Diego, saw la virgin and told the church and his people about how he saw la virgin and to build a church.

I believe he actually saw Tonantzin, but the church changed it so that they could convert the natives. The church 'modernized' her so that the church would be happy.

All we really know is that where the old temple was is where the church was built. Since then, mestizos and indigenas would pray to her.

Then many of you would be saying 'wtf is with all those virgins from here and from there?'

I have spoken to some indigenas about why they would pray to her if she's not indigena and of the chruch and they say that they pray to her bc she is their mother. The church would go to different parts of Mexico and change their goddess (Not sure what type of word to use here) into la virgin (I have more info about church and indigenas, but I think I will save it for another time.).

Then you go during the time before Mexican Independence. Criollos didn't like that everything came from Spain (wine, silk, books, etc...) and wanted to get their independence (it was never about the indigenas and the mestizos). At first they wanted to do it peaceful without fighting since a majority of the high ranking generals and soldiers were criollos. They wanted all criollos to refuse orders from the Spanish. Miguel Hidalgo was trying to convince the Criollos to get asistance from the indigenas and the mestizos, but they refused. I forget what happens (I think someone was captured or the Spanish found out that Hidalgo was part of the resistance), but something happened which caused Miguel Hidalgo to do the famous grito which we do today telling all mestizos and indigenas that they should fight if they want to be free. He then went to the nearest church and used an image of the virgin as the revolutionary banner (I have more info on indigenas and our history, but I think I will save it for another time.).

Then you somewhat go to recent times. The UFW used it as one of their banners and the people followed. The farm owners were ticked off at the UFW for using the virgin because they were catholic too.

That's pretty much what I can remember the people doing for la virgin. Any questions?
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  #15  
Old 11-29-2004
LaSweetThang LaSweetThang is offline
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so your saying that the virgen is only believed just because of some man that soppusely saw her O MY GOD in the Bible there is not one line of that guy Cuautlizatzin i guess he is made up to
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  #16  
Old 11-29-2004
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He isn't in the bible. There is a lot that isn't in the bible. For example, the Cristero War.
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  #17  
Old 11-29-2004
LaSweetThang LaSweetThang is offline
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YES i know it's just that i only believe whats in the Bible other than that i don't i have faith in God i don't have to see him to believe in him like people now they have to see it to believe it like i said everyone has there beleves
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  #18  
Old 11-29-2004
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so bc I'm not in the bible I don't exist? You're making no sense.
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  #19  
Old 11-29-2004
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i am not talking about that i am talking about IDOLS because that what the virgen is isn't she is not in the Bible as a idol to be worshiped
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  #20  
Old 12-07-2004
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Something a friend said yesterday that kind of goes with that. He said last year, he went to a virgin de guadalupe event and him and his friend laughed bc the priest was saying that la virgin is a catholic symbol and blah blah blah. Anyway, he wanted to tell the priest if it is only a catholic symbol, then why have we worship her thousands of years before europeans/catholicism came to these lands.

Virgin de Guadalupe day is coming up and reviving it.

similiar link:

http://www.soychicano.com/modules.ph...ghlight=virgin
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Last edited by tecpaocelotl; 04-26-2007 at 04:54 PM.
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  #21  
Old 12-08-2005
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I hate the new image of 'lupe'. Even some indigenous minded folk believe in the story of the catholic priests and juan diego. Which saddens me.
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  #22  
Old 12-08-2005
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well put. the title that is for the people blinded are held hostage to there own inequities. simply cause they see la virgen
or any other so called sign they think it's from heaven sent by God.

i know you now, next time we cross paths; talk. don't travel for miles just to take a glimpse.
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  #23  
Old 12-12-2005
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In this day and age - its a wonder people are still blinded by what the Catholic Church says. Most of the stuff it teaches is not even in the Bible and yet they say they believe in the Christian God.

The Bible says at Mark 7:7-9 -

"7 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.’ 8 Letting go the commandment of God, YOU hold fast the tradition of men.”

9 Further, he went on to say to them: “Adroitly YOU set aside the commandment of God in order to retain YOUR tradition."

This "tradition" of the Virgen is not even Christian - like Tec says it goes way back and yet the Catholic church adopted it so that they could get converts faster and easier and thus conquer the people - so easy to blind people especially with religion.
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  #24  
Old 12-12-2005
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i know you dude.

can't add more chavela, thank you.

well at least we agree that she is not mary the mother of Jesus Christ.

thanks for the insight.

Last edited by tecpaocelotl; 04-26-2007 at 04:54 PM.
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  #25  
Old 12-12-2005
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The tradition of men, religion, men created religion. Jesus never asked for a religion. He simply asked to spread his teachings. He even argued with the people who ran the church and asked questions about the church itself.

None of you Christians(and that includes Catholics) follow anything Jesus asked you, you're all the same.
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