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  #201  
Old 01-13-2007
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Default Re: Virgen de Guadalupe Mantel as a Pictograph

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  #202  
Old 01-13-2007
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Default Re: Virgen de Guadalupe Mantel as a Pictograph

What a bunch of nonsense and what a disgrace to our prehispanic culture! You're entitled to your interpretation, but not without facing some resistance in my interpretation of this image:

ON THE GUADALUPE IMAGE ORIGENS
Most everyone [Mexican] has been taught or has heard of the "miraculous" story of the "Virgin of Guadalupe" and how she spoke the native Nahuatl tongue of the Mexicah, whom she is supposed to be the esteemed mother. I was taught this very same story at a very young age, but somehow I have NEVER believed any of it!!! Let me explain why:

APPARITION AS A FALSE CHRISTIAN CONVERSION FACTOR
First of all, my own mother told me that the Guadalupe "appears" all over the world and that she turns the same color as the people that she appears before and she speaks the same native language.

Now, if this were really true, then WHAT is the purpose for her changing colors like a chameleon and switching languages like a linguist? WHY does the Guadalupe only appear before the Mexicah [the most powerful and influential Mesoamerican civilization at the time of the Spanish invasion], and does not appear before other Native-speaking peoples of Mesoamerica?

ON PHONY PURITAN VIRGINITY
Also, Why is it that these "Virgin" appearances follow and surface in the tracks wherever Spaniards invade? And Why does SHE have to be a VIRGIN? Virginity was NEVER a hang-up in our precolonial Mesoamerican culture. Get real!!!


IMPOSTER SPANIARD POSING AS MEXICAN
In fact, if one studies the Virgin of Guadalupe's facial features - her features are that of a European Spaniard with closely set eyes, a narrow head, a narrow mouth, thin lips, a thin receding European hairline, and a thin, long, narrow nose, and - with what appears to be dirt on her face for coloring – these described facial features of the Guadalupe are completely opposite of native Anahuac/Mexicah female facial features. [We have broad facial features, wide set eyes, full lips, and oval heart-shaped faces, not long narrow ones like Europeans]. She is NO mother of a real looking Mexican!

Also, the Guadalupe's hair is light brown color, and most Mesoamerican women have dark brown hair with reddish hues or black hair. Now some contemporary Mexican artisans have gone ahead and tried to make the Guadalupe look more native-like with indigenous looking facial features and hair.

EUROPEAN/MIDDLE EASTERN DRESS, NOT MEXICAN!
But, even the dress style of the Guadalupe is not from Mexico - but, rather, the style is straight-out of the Middle East! Precolonial Native Anahuac (Mesoamerican) women never wore veils and cloaked, Middle Eastern style dress until after colonization. In fact, most Native women at the time of the supposed miracle--dressed topless! Furthermore, the angel at the bottom of the Guadalupe image is straight from the Middle East as well. Angels are a part of the three prime Western religions: Juadaism, Christianity, and Islam. But, angels were NEVER a part of precolonial Mesoamerican culture.

SPANISH BULL HORNS & PAGAN SYMBOLISM
The horns at the bottom of the image form the "crescent of the moon" which is an ancient Old World Pagan concept. The horns also appear to look like those from a beast of burden, or possibly from a Spanish bull - which are nothing like the horns of New World buffalo.

SLAVE-BOUNDED HANDS
The position of the Guadalupe’s clasped hands, in the prayer-like position is also an Old World/Christian practice as well. It has been proposed by at least one atheist author (sorry, forgot the name), that the prayer-like clasped hands are really mimicing the chained and bounded hands of a slave forced to kneel, obey, beg and assume the clasped, prayer-like position under the force of enslavement.

FOREIGN ROSES, NOT INDIGENOUS!
Another questionable aspect of the Guadalupe story is the presence of “roses.” These types of rose flowers are from Old World plant species that were quite popular with the Catholic Church at the time of the “discovery” of the New World. If the Guadalupe story was true, then why does she have to deliver rose flowers from half-a-world away? Why not deliver native flowers from the surrounding native habitat? How about delivering native cacti blossoms, morning glory, or native sunflowers??? Roses were not even cultivated in the New World until after colonization. Also, European women were not even introduced into the New World until very recent in colonial history (last couple hundred years). For more than a hundred years, European men horded the wealth of the New World, providing none to their European women/wives back home.

MORE POWERFUL THAN THE STARS, HUITZILOPOCHTLI, & QUETZALCOATL???
About the only part of the Guadalupe that is possibly authentic and a remnant of native Mesoamerican culture is the presence of stars on her clothing. An ancient Maya/Anahuac belief includes the concept that people originate as “star people” – and that back to stars we all shall return. Often, when the elderly people of Anahuac speak of donning their crest of stars – the people mean that when they transform (die), they return to the stars.

Last edited by citlalin; 01-14-2007 at 10:04 AM.
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  #203  
Old 01-13-2007
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Default Re: Virgen de Guadalupe Mantel as a Pictograph

You are also entitled to your opinion, what I presented is simply one way to read el mantel de Juan Diego, some aspects that the Mexica would likely recognize and interpret.

I will however respond to some of your questions, not to argue but to simply present my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by citlalin
Now, if this were really true, then WHAT is the purpose for her changing colors like a chameleon and switching languages like a linguist? WHY does the Guadalupe only appear before the Mexicah [the most powerful and influential Mesoamerican civilization at the time of the Spanish invasion], and not appearing before other Native-speaking peoples of Mesoamerica?
First of all she appeared to Juan Diego, or as he is known by his original name: Cuauhtlatoatzin, he as you said was Mexica, but he was not anywhere near influential, he was of the lower class, barely above a slave, with no real authority, 57 at the time. Perhaps he belonged to the once dominant Mexica but he, personally was of no concequence.

As I'm sure you know, catholicism is universal, the image of the Virgin Mary has appeared everywhere, not only where the Spanish have landed or invaded. I think you are a bit confused if you believe La Guadalupana has only appeared where the Spanish land. Every Virgin is one in the same, La Virgen de Guadalupe is merely another apparition of the Virgin Mary. I personally believe that she changes appearance like a "chameleon" becuase in this way we are better able to receive her message.
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  #204  
Old 01-13-2007
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Default Re: Virgen de Guadalupe Mantel as a Pictograph

Quote:
Originally Posted by citlalin
In fact, if one studies the Virgin of Guadalupe's facial features - her features are that of a European Spaniard with closely set eyes, a narrow head, a narrow mouth, thin lips, thin receding European hair, and a thin, long, narrow nose, and - with what appears to be dirt on her face for coloring – these described facial features of the Guadalupe are completely opposite of native Anahuac/Mexicah female facial features. [We have broad facial features, wide set eyes, full lips, and oval heart-shaped faces, not long narrow ones like Europeans]. She is NO mother of a real looking Mexican!

Also, the Guadalupe's hair is light brown color, and most Anahuac women have dark, reddish brown or black hair. Now some contemporary Mexican artisans have gone ahead and tried to make the Guadalupe look more native-like with indigenous looking facial features and hair.

But, even the dress style of the Guadalupe is not from Mexico - but, rather, the style is straight-out of the Middle East! Precolonial Native Anahuac women never wore veils and cloaked, Middle Eastern style dress until after colonization. In fact, most Native women at the time of the supposed miracle--dressed topless! Furthermore, the angel at the bottom of the Guadalupe image is straight from the Middle East as well. Angels are a part of the three prime Western religions: Juadaism, Christianity, and Islam. But, angels were NEVER a part of precolonial Mesoamerican culture.
Her facial features i cannot explain, this is a holy relic, yet to even be explained by science, this was to be shown to the local Bishop who was of course Spanish. She appeared to Juan Diego as a beautiful indigenous young woman, so as to comfort him and assure him, perhaps she did the same when creating this proof for the Bishop
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  #205  
Old 01-13-2007
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Default Re: Virgen de Guadalupe Mantel as a Pictograph

Quote:
Originally Posted by citlalin
SPANISH BULL HORNS & PAGAN SYMBOLISM
The horns at the bottom of the image form the "crescent of the moon" which is an ancient Old World Pagan concept. The horns also appear to look like those from a beast of burden, or possibly from a Spanish bull - which are nothing like the horns of New World buffalo.
[/color]
Once again my post is one way of interpretation, I found that it is the most convincing personally becuase of what this image was to achieve. Of course the Virgen de Guadalupe would appear more powerful than Quetzalcoatl & Huitzilopochtli, this is a catholic symbol, stepping upon Quetzalcoatl and standing before Huitzilopochtli. It incorporates both Catholic and indigenous symbols, much like our present Mexican culture. Personally I embrace both sides, you can choose to spit upon the Spanish and the horrible things that occured in the past, but I choose to look with pride at our present culture, instead of harboring bitterness at the past, The present culture that is a total mixture of indigenous and Spanish beliefs, traditions, and culture.
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  #206  
Old 01-13-2007
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Default Re: Virgen de Guadalupe Mantel as a Pictograph

Like I said, you are entitled to your beliefs, but not without counter-interpretation.

CUAUHTLAHTOAZIN means "beloved eagle speaker." I doubt any "good" that you see in the apparition was intended to destroy prehispanic philosophy and "theology." What good is a mother who destroys the livelihoods of very poor, humble, native people and our indigenous beliefs and culture? She has NOT succeeded in destroying all...The powers of Huitzilopochtli, Quetzalcoatl, and the stars are very much alive today and growing stronger by the day and night.
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  #207  
Old 01-13-2007
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Default Re: Virgen de Guadalupe Mantel as a Pictograph

Quote:
Originally Posted by citlalin
SLAVE-BOUNDED HANDS
The position of the Guadalupe’s clasped hands, in the prayer-like position is also an Old World/Christian practice as well. It has been proposed by at least one atheist author (sorry, forgot the name), that the prayer-like clasped hands are really mimicing the chained and bounded hands of a slave forced to kneel and assume the clasped, prayer-like position.
MORE POWERFUL THAN THE STARS, HUITZILOPOCHTLI, & QUETZALCOATL???
About the only part of the Guadalupe that is possibly authentic and a remnant of native Mesoamerican culture is the presence of stars on her clothing. An ancient Maya/Anahuac belief includes the concept that people originate as “star people” – and that back to stars we all shall return. Often, when the elderly people of Anahuac speak of donning their crest of stars – the people mean that when they transform (die), they return to the stars.
You are free to your enterpritation, but I doubt that some sort of slavery can be infered from clasped hands, few may somehow confuse reverence or respect with perhaps meek submission I suppose. If you look closely at the mantel you can see that her knees appear to almost be moving, one obviously farther out than the other, some scholars have thought this to suggest motion, or perhaps dancing as the Mexica used to do when praying.

There is plenty of indigenous culture within the mantel but you may choose to focus on the Spanish if you want, I simply wanted to show a way that the Virgen de Guadalupe incorporated indigenous aspects.
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  #208  
Old 01-13-2007
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Default Re: Virgen de Guadalupe Mantel as a Pictograph

Quote:
Originally Posted by citlalin
Like I said, you are entitled to your beliefs, but not without counter-interpretation.

CUAUHTLAHTOAZIN means "beloved eagle speaker." I doubt any "good" that you see in the apparition was intended to destroy prehispanic philosophy and "theology." What good is a mother who destroys the livelihoods of very poor, humble, native people and our indigenous beliefs and culture? She has NOT succeeded in destroying all...The powers of Huitzilopochtli, Quetzalcoatl, and the stars are very much alive today and growing stronger by the day and night.
...I think that perhaps you are confusing the actions of man for religion. There is a MAJOR difference between the two. Man has constantly used religion as an excuse to slaughter, conquer, and obtain what they desire, to blame God, the virgin mary, or any sort of higher being or religion is ignorance.
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  #209  
Old 01-13-2007
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Default Re: Virgen de Guadalupe Mantel as a Pictograph

If she really wanted to align herself with the poorest of poor, Nahuatl-speaking Mexica, then why doesn't she dress like them? Have you ever witnessed an indigenous Mexica ceremony???

I assure you that I have attended native ceremonies; and, Guadalupe's dress, iconography, and movements bear NO semblance whatsoever to anything of the poor and indigenous Mexica or native dance, not of the Mexica back then--not of the Mexica today!
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  #210  
Old 01-14-2007
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Default Re: Virgen de Guadalupe Mantel as a Pictograph

Like I said before its not a question of alignment, you keep speaking of this as if its Spanish vs Indigenous, please read my previous statements, I assure you that I touched upon this already.

Yes, I have also attended native ceremonies.
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  #211  
Old 01-14-2007
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Default Re: Virgen de Guadalupe Mantel as a Pictograph

Some things I would like to say about this thread...

First of all she did not appeared in December 12, rather during December 22.

Second, Huitzilopochtli is not associated with the sun. He is with war, and actual defender of Coatlicue. Curiously, but right on, indigenous calpultin to dance daily at modern Tepeyac call la virgen as Tonantzin Toci Coatlicue. Huitzilopochtli defeated the enemies of her mother, mother earth, and was famous for that. Seconds after he was born, he attacked Coyolxauhqui (her sister) and her army.

Third, the moon is not the symbol of Quetzalcoatl. From every point of view, the moon is always associated with the female side of god, or goddess. For instance with the Mayans was Ixchel, with the P'urepecha was Xaratanga, and with the Otomi it was simply the old mother of everything. It has nothing to do with Quetzalcoatlian beliefs, philosophies or symbolism.

Fourth, from the accounts in Nahuatl that were written after her appearance, it was written that she was Teteonantzin, the mother of the gods. That is, the great goddess. She is the female side of the great one god.

Fifth, if I was a Mexica from the 16th century, I would simply believe she is the manifestation of Teteonantzin conquering over the new wave of religion imposition. That is, that she reacted to retain her place she always had while Spaniards while destroying temples and beliefs. Lately the second one to react has been Mictlantecuhtli as the Santisima Muerte.
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  #212  
Old 01-14-2007
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Default Re: Virgen de Guadalupe Mantel as a Pictograph

Quote:
There is plenty of indigenous culture within the mantel but you may choose to focus on the Spanish if you want, I simply wanted to show a way that the Virgen de Guadalupe incorporated indigenous aspects.
Good Post.
"To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible."

I've always believed that the story of Our Lady of Guadalupe may enable Mexican-American women to move beyond the model of silent, passive endurance to one of empowerment, defense, and help for the oppressed.


Quote:
So, you think you can kill off the powers of Huitzilopochtli and Quetzalcoatl WITH A FAKE APPARITION & NONSENSICAL STORY??? Think again Baaa Baa White Sheep!!!
Take a friggen pill. She merely posted about the mantal and its supposed meanings. Anyone else could say the same thing of your beliefs and proclaim them to be mere myths. People in general are going to believe what they choose to believe regardless of all the bru-ja-ja that can be read out of a book.

Last edited by Cathreina; 01-14-2007 at 08:35 AM.
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  #213  
Old 01-14-2007
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Default Re: Virgen de Guadalupe Mantel as a Pictograph

Quote:
Originally Posted by citlalin
but not without counter-interpretation.
Now that's funny. Since when has anyone's opinions or PERSONAL beliefs been open to countering for anything?

Who the hell are you to judge or say that someone's opinion is skewed or false or misled in any way?

You may not always be right yourself. If you want to educate someone on something belittling them is not the way to do it. patience and an open mind is best.
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  #214  
Old 01-14-2007
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Default Re: Virgen de Guadalupe Mantel as a Pictograph

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cihuapilli
Take a friggen pill. She merely posted about the mantal and its supposed meanings. Anyone else could say the same thing of your beliefs and proclaim them to be mere myths. People in general are going to believe what they choose to believe regardless of all the bru-ja-ja that can be read out of a book.
That statement was pure sarcasm, so if you read it as anything else, that's your interpretation.
I only regret I slipped into sarcasm.

I also stated at the very beginning that the thread's interpretation is not the only one, which is why I posted.

Anything anyone says is an interpretation based on a person's background, experiences, beliefs, teachings, indoctrinations, etc. The poster clearly took a shot at indigenous beliefs and practices in points 1,2, 3 and 6. So if she can dish it out, then she should expect responses, whether in agreement or not. That simple.

These are all interpretations, so read them any which way you choose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mz-Sweetnez
1.LA VIRGEN STANDS IN FRONT OF THE SUN
She was and is greater than Huitzilopochtli, their
sun-god of war.

2. SHE IS STANDING ON TOP OF A CRESCENT MOON
She had clearly crushed Quetzalcoatl,
the feathered serpent moon-god.

3. THE STARS ACROSS THE MANTLE
She was greater than the stars of heaven.
She was a virgin and the Queen of the heavens for Virgo
rests over her womb and the northern crown upon her head. She appeared on December 12, 1531 and the stars that are on her mantel match the constellations of that night.

6. THE BLACK BELT
She was with child because she wore the Aztec Maternity Belt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mz-Sweetnez
Like I said before its not a question of alignment, you keep speaking of this as if its Spanish vs Indigenous, please read my previous statements, I assure you that I touched upon this already.

Yes, I have also attended native ceremonies.
Yes, you have touched upon the interpretations which blend Spanish and indigenous practices--and they are just that--a blend of beliefs. However, there are Danzante groups (particularly younger people) who practice the traditions from a purely indigenous perspective. You clearly took a shot at indigenous beliefs in steps 1,2, 3 and 6. If you continue to do that, I'm certain that others such as myself will offer counter interpretations.

What is the "Aztec maternity belt" anyway? This sounds like it was made up. Do you even know anything about indigenous ceremonies that honor Huitzilopochtli?
Enough said, just be prepared to take it if can you dish it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TlacuiloPilo
Second, Huitzilopochtli is not associated with the sun.
I have no idea where you coming from, but the Huitzilopochtli festival to honor the return of the sun during the Winter Solstice season is one of the most defining ceremonies of all Mexica practices that continues today.
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  #215  
Old 01-14-2007
Cathreina Cathreina is offline
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Default Re: Virgen de Guadalupe Mantel as a Pictograph

Quote:
These are all interpretations, so read them any which way you choose.
Exactly. Simply because ones interpretations do not comply with are own doesn't necessarily mean they are as you so put them,
Quote:
What a bunch of nonsense and what a disgrace to our prehispanic culture

Quote:
I only regret I slipped into sarcasm
Forgive yoursellf, its only a human reaction or is that beneath you?

As pagan as it may seem, I have a sudden urge to go light a candle.......
Peace out..............for now.

Last edited by Cathreina; 01-14-2007 at 01:07 PM.
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  #216  
Old 01-14-2007
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Default Re: Virgen de Guadalupe Mantel as a Pictograph

I don't understand. Are you trying to enlighten someone or just talk down to them/us/her??? seriously.

If you have info cool. Share it. If you just want to pop your mouth off and seem like you're above everyone then you're doing a good job of one of them.
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  #217  
Old 01-14-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TlacuiloPilo
Fifth, if I was a Mexica from the 16th century, I would simply believe she is the manifestation of Teteonantzin conquering over the new wave of religion imposition. That is, that she reacted to retain her place she always had while Spaniards while destroying temples and beliefs. Lately the second one to react has been Mictlantecuhtli as the Santisima Muerte.
Interesting take on this. But why would Tonantzin (Guadalupe) and Miquiztli (Santisima Muerte) attempt to surface and represent the indigenous in imposter clothing? Ceremonial clothing is identity is all indigenous practices. Certainly, these forces arise where there is a need, but the imposter colonial dress ruins it in my view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meme
I don't understand. Are you trying to enlighten someone or just talk down to them/us/her??? seriously.

If you have info cool. Share it. If you just want to pop your mouth off and seem like you're above everyone then you're doing a good job of one of them.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Someone took a shot at indigenous beliefs, practices, and icons and I responded. I am not responsible for anyone's learning experience. People can do that just fine for themselves.

I can say and do as I want here (within the context rules of soychicano)--Do you not say and do what you want here at soychicano Meme? Never in my life would I tell you not to speak your mind.

There's nothing I despise more than someone trying to silence my way of communicating. Wouldn't you hate it if someone tried to shut your mouth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cihuapilli
Forgive yoursellf, its only a human reaction or is that beneath you?
I read this as sarcasm--well, now we have something in common. !yay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cihuapilli
As pagan as it may seem, I have a suggen urge to go light a candle.......
Peace out..............for now.
Pagans don't have a patent on candle burning. Humankind learned to kindle fire a long time ago, long before what we recognize as a Pagan practice today.

Last edited by tecpaocelotl; 04-26-2007 at 04:53 PM.
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  #218  
Old 01-15-2007
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Default Re: Virgen de Guadalupe Mantel as a Pictograph

Quote:
Originally Posted by citlalin
The poster clearly took a shot at indigenous beliefs and practices in points 1,2, 3 and 6. So if she can dish it out, then she should expect responses, whether in agreement or not. That simple.
I dont know if you noticed but I replied to every aspect of your initial antagonistic post. I'll once again repeat my previous statments, this post was not to be ----vs----- this was to show another way we can look upon the mantle. I'll also remind you that this is a holy relic and in my opinion, this entails some support of that religion. It is therefore logical that there would be some aspects that do show catholic superiority, although there is plenty of both cultures. You may attempt to make this into an argument with your sarcasm and hostile statements but this will be my last reply. I believe I have repeated myself enough times.
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  #219  
Old 01-18-2007
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Default Re: Virgen de Guadalupe Mantel as a Pictograph

Quote:
Originally Posted by citlalin
Interesting take on this. But why would Tonantzin (Guadalupe) and Miquiztli (Santisima Muerte) attempt to surface and represent the indigenous in imposter clothing? Ceremonial clothing is identity is all indigenous practices. Certainly, these forces arise where there is a need, but the imposter colonial dress ruins it in my view.
I am not talking about being impostors.
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  #220  
Old 01-18-2007
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Default Re: Virgen De Guadalupe

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  #221  
Old 01-19-2007
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Default Re: Virgen De Guadalupe

After reading this post for some time i had to skip ahead. There is a lot of history here and those who are interested its a great read and see all sides. However when it becomes a debate over religion its just the same song over and over again. There will continue to be war as long as we all continue to fight over who is wrong and who is right. There will be no peace as long as we continue to cut each others throats. Embracing differences and allowing each other to believe what we believe is the key. All this talk about opening eyes is just bring us all down at each others expense. I have much respect for all who have taken the time to reasurch it and try to share. But as for the debates they are getting old. Believe what you want as you want we all make up our own minds...
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  #222  
Old 04-26-2007
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Default Re: Virgen De Guadalupe

this is a good post - thank-you Tec
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  #223  
Old 04-26-2007
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tecpaocelotl tecpaocelotl is offline
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Default Re: Virgen De Guadalupe

You're welcome. Glad you like it.

Did I tell you about what I saw in the news last December about the priest avoiding the question from the reporter that la virgin is actually Tonantzin?
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  #224  
Old 04-26-2007
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Default Re: Virgen De Guadalupe

Nope -------- you havent called me in awhile

but I'd like to hear about it
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Old 04-27-2007
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Default Re: Virgen De Guadalupe

crazy, i dint even see all this last segment of debating. I thought we had already proved that she is of indigenous origin. But i see that there are some additional intricate angles that have been brought up. i hope to get back on this topic soon.
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