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  #26  
Old 03-03-2007
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Default Re: Race: The Power of an Illusion

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Originally Posted by quimichipilli View Post
i have never understood this when people claim or infer that "race does not exist." everytime i ask for an explanation i am left alone.

to me,race does exist, it is not an illusion. the boundaries of how one will define and choose what encompasses it will vary.

i believe peeple choose to point out "illusions" in order not to face issues which represent aspects of themselves and therefore make a reason not to address issues with themselves.
there is a school of thought in science race does not biologically exist....there is no gene or set of genes that makes u a specific race...
but this does not mean that race does not have an impact in ppl's lives.
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Old 03-03-2007
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Default Re: Race: The Power of an Illusion

yes i know science has their rhetoric. but people from here and people from there have such and such qualities.
race does exist. whether one thinks of it as a border or thinks of themselves as seperate or above any perceived category of difference is another subject.

whats the intention behind making the claim that race does not exist?
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  #28  
Old 03-03-2007
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Default Re: Race: The Power of an Illusion

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Originally Posted by quimichipilli View Post
yes i know science has their rhetoric. but people from here and people from there have such and such qualities.
race does exist. whether one thinks of it as a border or thinks of themselves as seperate or above any perceived category of difference is another subject.

whats the intention behind making the claim that race does not exist?

ur question is going to beget a roundabout answer....



how does race exist in your opinion?
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  #29  
Old 03-03-2007
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Default Re: Race: The Power of an Illusion

the reason for proving race does not exist is to show that there is no innate qualities in all individuals of a so called group...

example: just because you are mexican you genetically like beans or you are genetically a criminal.

or just because you are a mexican woman you like to cook because of genetics..
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  #30  
Old 03-03-2007
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Default Re: Race: The Power of an Illusion

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Originally Posted by quimichipilli View Post
i have never understood this when people claim or infer that "race does not exist." everytime i ask for an explanation i am left alone.
It might be because they are simply passing along information of which they have very little understanding. You see, the idea that race does not exist sounds good to a certain crowd, and it tends to supported by people who share their socio-political outlook. Acquiring an understanding of the debate surrounding race becomes a distant concern--if a concern at all; what is of paramount importance, is sharing the idea that race is nonexistent and passing it off as if there is no scientific counter argument. It other words, they have no idea (and aren’t really concerned with finding out) if science actually supports the idea that race is only a “social-construct”; they just like the idea of “equality” so much they would rather remain ignorant of any information that indicates biological differences between group-populations (races). I mean, how in the hell can one seriously say there is no such thing as race and then go on to claim that racism exists!?

Race: The Reality of Human Differences, written by Frank Miele, Vincent Sarich and published in 2004 is said to counter all ten conclusions of of the PBS documentary's summary in regards to the existence of race.
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  #31  
Old 03-03-2007
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Default Re: Race: The Power of an Illusion

Around 10% of all genetic differences in the human population are ethnic specific. This means that 90% of the genetic differences predate the birth of modern races. Races are ephemeral things. They are real but they come and go.

Did you know that...

1) Puerto Ricans used to believe they were mainly Spanish and African and that those indios salvajes had died long ago. Well, it turns out that there is a predominantly over-representation of Native American alleles. People are not very good at reporting their true ancestries because of ignorance as well as social pressures

2) "Hispanics" in the Southwest have less European ancestry than once supposed. Even Native Americans still on the res, still have Hispanic surnames remaining from the colonial legacy of whitewashing everything.

2) African Americans are more European than African? Go research the one-drop-rule history in this country to see why.

2) Ashkenaz populations initially intermarried with early European woman before becoming a completely isolated (inbreeding) community. Therefore, the majority of Ashkenaz matrilineal lines do not have a clear connection to Hebrew descent, contrary to oral and written tradition. If you feel the anti-semitic urge to say they are not Jewish then consider that Jewish traditions maintain both a strong and legal tradition of conversions throughout Hebrew history. Also consider the next point.

4) Jewish and Kohanim (Hebrew for priest) lineages genetically confirm the biblical tradition of priestly descent through the Aaronic lineage. In Italian and Spanish areas of influence this is carried through the Sacerdote family name, which simply derives from the Latin (now Italian and Spanish) word for "priest".

5) The African Lemba, which long maintained an oral tradition of Jewish descent also have the Kohanim markers.
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  #32  
Old 03-03-2007
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Default Re: Race: The Power of an Illusion

^ use of %'s require citations

Quote:
Originally Posted by quimichipilli View Post
yes i know science has their rhetoric. but people from here and people from there have such and such qualities.
race does exist.
If you find the scientific method to be rhetorical, then what evidence would validate the idea that race doesn't exist? (i.e. what equates proof in your eyes?) It appears to be useless to engage in any discussion when you've written off anything that doesn't conform with your ideas.
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  #33  
Old 03-03-2007
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Default Re: Race: The Power of an Illusion

um, yeah.. thanks for the history lesson?
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  #34  
Old 03-03-2007
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Post Re: Race: The Power of an Illusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElSilencioLoco View Post
^ use of %'s require citations


If you find the scientific method to be rhetorical, then what evidence would validate the idea that race doesn't exist? (i.e. what equates proof in your eyes?) It appears to be useless to engage in any discussion when you've written off anything that doesn't conform with your ideas.
The race concept is 10% useful as far as human variation is concerned. See citation below.

Citation:
International HapMap Consortium.
A haplotype map of the human genome.
Nature. 2005 Oct 27;437(7063):1299-320.


or Pubmed link:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum
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  #35  
Old 03-03-2007
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Default Re: Race: The Power of an Illusion

I wonder: if race has no biological foundation, how is it that geneticists via "genetic markers" can tell the racial make-up of person? In fact, people who look "white" have been found to have some African DNA and vice versa. So, if race is only a "social-construct" that is "only skin-deep," how can geneticists tell the race by the studying of blood samples?

Let us not forget that there are scientist who are conducting race-based medical studies. One such medical study showed that certain drugs helped "significantly improved [the] survival rates in a group of self-reported black patients." If race does not exist, then one would have to conclude that studies taking it into account are flawed from the beginning and unreliable. However, no one would seriously deny that race is indeed an important consideration in dealing with certain ailments. Should doctors, for the sake of "political-correctness," abstain from conducting racially based medical studies?

Sandra Soo-Jin Lee, a medical anthropologist at Stanford University, explains that her research "is to disavow the idea that race is embedded in the genome and to get us away from thinking about racial biology." However, when she confronted with the succinct and direct question, "Do you think scientists should stop using race in pharmacogenomics studies," she responds with a convoluted reply that doesn't answer the question.

Her response:

"We should think carefully about what the implications might be when thinking about race embedded in genetics. So I think we should ask researchers why they are including race when they do it. Race is often described as merely a first step on the road towards individualized therapies--a way station. However, it is often the case that racial findings are reported without any further interrogation of how race is serving as a proxy for other factors. The focus remains on race, which further reifies the notion that race is somehow genetic. For example, if a researcher were to conduct a pharmacogenomic study and found that one racially identified group had a significantly better drug response than another, one would hope that further studies on the reason for this difference would be conducted to see whether there were underlying factors at play. With Bidil, the FDA could have done a genetic study before they put a race-specific label on the drug. Then we could think about the results with much more complexity."

So, was that a "yes" or a "no"?

Perhaps, the question is: what evidence will it take for the race deniers to admit there are racial differences?

Last edited by Observer; 03-03-2007 at 01:26 PM.
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  #36  
Old 03-03-2007
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Default Re: Race: The Power of an Illusion

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Originally Posted by Observer View Post
Perhaps, the question is: what evidence will it take for the race deniers to admit there are racial differences?
The genetics is quite clear at the level of DNA. I'll assume nobody here is an African pygmy for my example. If you line up the DNA sequence between two African pygmies, they will differ from each other by 0.10% on average (1/1000 bp). Now if you line up your genomic DNA (and you are not an African pygmy, then you will find that it differs by about 0.11%. That extra 10% difference (or 0.01% total genomic diffence) is due to mutations that occured in your ethnic tribe after your common ancestors with pygmies split ways. The remaining differences are old mutations that we still all share.

So the physical differences between you and a pygmy, are due to those 0.01% ethnic differences.

There are also differences in the percentage of certain alleles. So even though Asians and Caucasians may share some of he same alleles (versions of genes), they may occur at different rates in each of the two populations.

It is what it is. It's not like there are no genetic differences but it is also not like there are signficant and ancient differences between the races. Most racial classifications cooked up by man are half-right, half-wrong. Genetics can do a lot to figure out what's different. Like if you'll get lung cancer if you keep on smoking.
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Old 03-03-2007
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Default Re: Race: The Power of an Illusion

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Originally Posted by El_arriero View Post

It's not like there are no genetic differences but it is also not like there are signficant and ancient differences between the races.
Well, I have read that Blacks from West Africa or who can trace their family back to that region, on average have a higher ration of fast-twitch muscle fibers than the average white. Fast-twitch muscles are said to account for explosive speed--sprinting. That Blacks tend to have more fast-twitch muscle fibers may help to explain why they dominate sprinting and sports that place a premium on sprinting ability.

Now given that margin of victory and finishing 5th in the 100 meter-dash is measured in hundredths of seconds, these less than significant genetic differences may make for a profoundly significant different result in sprinting events.

Last edited by Observer; 03-03-2007 at 11:33 AM.
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  #38  
Old 03-03-2007
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Default Re: Race: The Power of an Illusion

holy shit, there looks like there's a lot for me to read. damn...
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  #39  
Old 03-03-2007
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Default Re: Race: The Power of an Illusion

Oh i remember those debates.

I see the Bell Curve and Philippe Rushton still have some followers.
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Default Re: Race: The Power of an Illusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ESL
If you find the scientific method to be rhetorical, then what evidence would validate the idea that race doesn't exist? (i.e. what equates proof in your eyes?) It appears to be useless to engage in any discussion when you've written off anything that doesn't conform with your ideas.
Well, all I am asking for is a decent explanation of the claim that "race does not exist."
Not sure if you were applying the last comment to me but I have not written off anything. My mind is open to consider all things.
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  #41  
Old 03-03-2007
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Default Re: Race: The Power of an Illusion

I feel as if nobody is reading my posts and understanding.
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  #42  
Old 03-03-2007
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Default Re: Race: The Power of an Illusion

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Originally Posted by quimichipilli View Post
Well, all I am asking for is a decent explanation of the claim that "race does not exist."
Given the history of some here who claim race is only a "social-construct" I think it is doubtful you'll get it. I hope, however, that I will be proven wrong and you'll get your answer from those who claim race has no biological foundation.

I'm almost finished with Jon Entine's Taboo: Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports And Why We're Afraid To Talk About It. He argues that Black athletes have a biological advantage in certain world-class athletic competitions over non-Black athletes. It seems rather obvious that Blacks do have a biological advantage in certain sports--an observations that many Blacks make. But if you're not Black it is often considered racist to say "Blacks are natural athletes" publicly.

Of course, the obvious truism that Blacks have a biological advantage in certain sports is often scoffed at. Why? I guess because once we admit that there are at least some biological differences which translates into noticeable and significant difference in performance then we are likely opening ourselves up to seriously considering some uncomfortable questions. If it is socially permissible to conclude that, via human evolution, races have evolved biologically in different ways--muscle and skeletal differences, for example--then the door is opened to examine other types of performance and its relation to biology--the ever unpopular and dreaded race and IQ question.

Indeed, the brain, like human muscles, is a product genetic development (and evolution). So, if (scientific) biological differences--in terms of muscle and skeletal structure--can, in anyway, account for the dominance in some (physical) sports by Blacks, then maybe we can start to question if there are cognitive differences between population groups (race). Of course, to even raise that question in academia will likely bring calls of racism. So, better to (be politically-correct) say that any biological differences between races are insignificant and amount to only superficial physical appearances (i.e skin color, head and eye shape) and deny the obvious truth that biological differences between the races do translate into meaningful and significant differences in physical performance at all levels of sport, particularly the elite level.
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  #43  
Old 03-04-2007
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Default Re: Race: The Power of an Illusion

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Originally Posted by Bert View Post
I believe slavery predates race...race became highly associated with slavery because skin color was such an easy marker, people obviously viewed slaves as lesser, but the fact that they happened to be black or indigenous caused people to correlate race with slavery.
In India, a caste system has existed in which the lighter skinned Indians assumed dominance and ownership of darker skinned Indians. Did this caste system exist before Europeans conquered India or was it introduced by Europeans afterward?
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  #44  
Old 03-04-2007
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Default Re: Race: The Power of an Illusion

Heres a very interesting article for those interested. it was published by the American Psychologist, Vol.60 N°1, january 2005

http://gess.files.wordpress.com/2006...c-sciences.pdf


Quote:
Originally Posted by El Arriero
So the physical differences between you and a pygmy, are due to those 0.01% ethnic differences.
I understand what you mean, however, it is said that Most of these ancestry informative markers are in regions of the genome that do not code for functional molecules such as proteins. (from the article i posted)

So i dont really know what to think.

On the other hand, do you understand perfectly the article you posted about the halotype map? i tried to read it but i need some explanations, its too technical for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Quimich
whats the intention behind making the claim that race does not exist?
Similarily, one could ask what's the intention behing claiming that race does exist.

Historically, racial differentiation was used to justify all kinds of differential treatments, in the Americas, in Africa, in Asia, in Europe ...

so if we look at history and ask who has benefited from the racial discourse? , it becomes obvious that it has benefited the elites, often white, much more than the "coloured" masses.

Quote:
In India, a caste system has existed in which the lighter skinned Indians assumed dominance and ownership of darker skinned Indians. Did this caste system exist before Europeans conquered India or was it introduced by Europeans afterward?
From what i know, it existed long before europeans arrived.

however, the underlying justifications might have been, slightly or significantly, influenced by european presence and the advent of racial science during the height of colonial rule. It's a possibility but honestly, i dont know.



On a side note, The Bell Curve was a best-seller in 1994 and Race, Evolution and Behavior by Rushton (1995, re-published in 1997 and 2000) sold pretty well. these are just two examples of the many books about race, intelligence and genetics that one can find easily and that dont stir up an array of indignation and protest.
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