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  #26  
Old 01-26-2009
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

Tlacuilo, I believe I answered your similar sentiments in another thread which I shall repost here.

Perhaps studying the collective Chicano experience and scenario would answer part of your question. Many people here don't know their history or even think they are Native people. The ones that do acknowledge a lil something know that they are "part Aztec." I am no spokesperson for Mexica Movement but I commend their efforts to give the Chicano youth and people a base of knowledge and inspiration in which to identify themselves.
In a time where the colonial term Latino is king and Mexican people dont know they are Indians. Mexica identity is the perfect antidote to anchor the Chicano masses into their (true) indigenous heritage. I believe it inevitable that once people evolve in their indigenous studies (and hopefully spirituality and traditions) they will easily lean to and respect their proper genetic/cultural Native nation.
I once frequented Mexica Movement events but eventually grew out of (some) their ideaologies. They are mostly a political organization and don't partake in (nor respectfully acknowledge) ceremony or practical application of traditional ways. I know I am of Purhepecha and Nahua lineage, and even though I acknowledge that fact, I still proclaim Mexicah/Xicano. I feel it is the necessary bridge of identity for the collective Chicano people to escape the fateful spell of "Latino." Perhaps in Mexico it might be a different scenario.



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However, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about people whom say they are descendants of the Aztecs. If what you say is true, that 90% of all Native Indians died after the conquest, and then 90% of the Mexica died, you're only proving my point further. That barely anyone is a descendant of the Aztecs.

Of course you don't take into consideration the estimated percentage of Natives, Europeans, and Africans. The non-indian percentage never rached more than 12-15% of the population. And if I am correct in stating , that was just the estimate in the valley of Mexico.


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Old 01-26-2009
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

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i'd also like to learn about the battles at sea.
x2
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Old 01-26-2009
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

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Of course you don't take into consideration the estimated percentage of Natives, Europeans, and Africans. The non-indian percentage never rached more than 12-15% of the population. And if I am correct in stating , that was just the estimate in the valley of Mexico.

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descendants of the Aztecs
That literally means I'm referring to the Aztecs.
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Old 01-26-2009
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

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That literally means I'm referring to the Aztecs.

The more you try to save face the more you look stupid. Humility enhances education, I suggest you learn some.
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Old 01-26-2009
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

You know responding with insults is pussy behavior.
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Old 01-26-2009
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

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You know responding with insults is pussy behavior.
I didn't insult you. Grow some skin youngster and learn how to take some blunt advice.

Like so:

I see where I made the mistake that you were specifically talking about the Mexica (aztec) as opposed to Native people of the Valley of Mexico in general. I have the balls to admit when I've made an error. A lil humility goes a long way.

Last edited by QMX; 01-26-2009 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 01-26-2009
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

You know, if I told a moderator to grow some skin after warning me for insulting posts I'd probably get warned again. Therefore it is now hard to tell what is considered an insult and what is not.
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

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You know, if I told a moderator to grow some skin after warning me for insulting posts I'd probably get warned again. Therefore it is now hard to tell what is considered an insult and what is not.
You should know by now young prodigy. Plus, when's the last time I gave you a warning? Stop making excuses.
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  #34  
Old 01-26-2009
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

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i like to know more bout these sea battles you speak of.
The battle of Moch Couoh are briefly described by Landa (forgot his complete name, I'm not at home). But if you're a Mayanist, you should already know what book I am talking about, if not, Landa was a friar that wrote Mayan stuff, mainly to discredit them. When talking about Moch Couoh, he tries to downplay the land/sea battle, eventhough he does describes it. I also heard the Mayans and others were actually very much into the sea. The itzaes, who later founded Chichen Itza, describe their voyage by sea. Eight Deer Jaguar Claw, high ruler of the three Mixtecas, also went with his brother Twelve Earthquake to the very end where the East lies. Some say he probably went to Cuba or Chichen Itza or someplace else.

But about the sea battle, it is said that when the Spaniards run to their ships, they were quickly followed in canoes by the Mayans. As the ships sailed away from the battle, the Mayans attacked from their canoes, and even some Spaniards were killed.

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Originally Posted by El Californio View Post
Thanks Captain Obvious



to TlacuiloPilo or Tec
Wasn't Saltillo also founded by the Tlaxcalteca?
LOL!

Yes, Saltillo, Coahuila was founded by the Tlaxcalteca and a couple of Otomi "barrios". Saltillo was an important tlaxcalteca cultural stronghold. I have read documents from Colonial era that include deeds, testamentary, and even lawsuits, where all Saltillo citizens involved have a Nahuatl last name. That is because Nahuatl was also the language of the Tlaxcalteca. A lot of tlaxcalteca cultural traits still survive today. Some say (I still have my doubts) that many regional clothing of Saltillo and Monterrey are Tlaxcalteca from origin.

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Originally Posted by tecpaocelotl View Post
I don't think anyone would be bored if you reference them. If you did a paragraph on each codex, then that's a whole different story. LOL.

The last parts should be for a different new thread.

Didn't know much of what you posted here.

I did know they went to the current United States southwest, but didn't know they settled there.
Ok, LOL, I'll try to give more explanatory notes. If not, I know you'll do it happily.

About the US, thing is that Texas and Coahuila were one at some point. They were actually called "Texas y Coahuila", and was considered sort of a territory (Much like Baja California in the 20th century). And the border between Tamaulipas and today's Texas was very movable. Of course, I am referring specifically to populations of what is today of high Mexican concentration, like San Antonio, Laredo, and so on. But as always, the native Texans were actually the Apache Lipan (With their current capital at Falfurrias, TX), the Comanche (when they entered Texas fighting the Apache non-Lipan). The enigmantic Carrizos, which Cabeza de Vaca met when crossing through today's McAllen. And the Arankawas for Corpus Christi. I am not a Texas expert, so this is basically all I know.

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Originally Posted by ShyXicana08 View Post
Saltillo is in Coahuila.

damn, this is a great thread..

i'd also like to learn about the battles at sea.
Never imagined it would turn out this good. If only my nudity art threads were like this, LOL!

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Originally Posted by Californio View Post
The difficult thing about this is that there is no documentation for the indians. Unlike the European immigrants that came to the U.S which were documented and accounted for via Ellis Island.
Cool informtion on your family history. There is little documentation for natives, little. But there is somewhere, probably still undiscovered at local parishes in Mexico. But there is lots of info on royalty. Doesn't matter if they were Moctezuma, or a lesser petty king from a dusty village, there is information. My ancestor, from the Otomi side was one of those petty kings at Actopan. He was referred by Spaniards as cacique Denhuada. I descend from his daughter, Deni (flower in Spanish). That is why I truly say there is info, you just gotta know your genealogical stuff to surf through generations back.

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Originally Posted by QMX View Post
Tlacuilo, I believe I answered your similar sentiments in another thread which I shall repost here.

Perhaps studying the collective Chicano experience and scenario would answer part of your question. Many people here don't know their history or even think they are Native people. The ones that do acknowledge a lil something know that they are "part Aztec."

I once frequented Mexica Movement events but eventually grew out of (some) their ideaologies. They are mostly a political organization and don't partake in (nor respectfully acknowledge) ceremony or practical application of traditional ways.
I know what you mean, truly understand. I actually started the same, wanting to know more about the Mexica glory. After all, I am from Mexico City. But as time passed, the same happened to me. Now I pose this question? How do we know this will happen to all? And most importantly: In the future, we will fully embrace our heritage and it will no longer be a subculture of "Latino" culture. How can we be sure that because of lazyness and not checking facts we could end up with a frankenstein culture, instead of what we today dream of?
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  #35  
Old 01-28-2009
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

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But about the sea battle, it is said that when the Spaniards run to their ships, they were quickly followed in canoes by the Mayans. As the ships sailed away from the battle, the Mayans attacked from their canoes, and even some Spaniards were killed.
now that's defending our land.
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  #36  
Old 01-28-2009
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

Thanks Tlacuilo. As always, you are a great source of information and inspiration.
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  #37  
Old 01-29-2009
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

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Originally Posted by TlacuiloPilo View Post
Maybe will hate me for what I am about to say, others will simply deny it. So as I am in the mood of creating controversy, here it goes:

What is fixation of the majority of the people here to be a Mexica?
This is a great topic that you bring up.

I once knew two elders: Roxanne "Rocky" Rodriguez who said she's Xicana (and I can't remember exactly what she said her other tribe is) and another person to bring this up was an African Massai elder named Dr. Laetolli le Baaba.

Rocky said that when the Chicano Movement started gaining momentum in the 60s and 70s... Crusade for Justice, Brown Berets de Aztlan and M.E.Ch.A.s began to sprout and recryuut Chicano youth, Vietnam vets, and students in the Southwest by calling them to action for Chicano unity, civil rights and to embrace their Chicano identities instead of rejecting it. Chicano from those groups began to embrace their "Azteca, Spanish, and African or Mestizo" history as they would display on a 3 face amulet that depicted the fusion of these 3 races. Chicanos prior to that were more concerned with assimilating and integrating rather then be proud of their Chicanismo although Chicanos were segregated from White institutions as Blacks were by the White Power Structure.

She said as time passed and she did more research into her background, she began to learn that "Aztec" was just a generic term that Chicanos were using and still use, but as she joined the Brown Berets, CFJ, MEChA, she began to realize that not all Chicanos were descendants of the "Aztecs" as it was widely believed. She said some Chicanos only scratched the surface of learning about their "Aztec" history but other Chicanos such as her began to dig deeper to learn about their indigena roots which led them on the path to the Red Road and some joined up with the American Indian Movement and some became Mexica Danzantes, Sun Dancers, partook in Peyote Ceremonies, etc.

She said we shouldn't see the White man's borders of the Southwest including Mexico as being Aztlan and that some Chicanos might be Aztecs but that not all Chicanos are of Aztec ancestry, some Chicanos are actually from other tribes that are not Mexica.

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Originally Posted by El Californio View Post
Peoples fixation is based on most not knowing their history, simple as that. Many don't care and others who do often don't know where to look.


Keep spitting that knowledge TP


True that. Family lore in many families favors having European ancestors (particularly Spanish & French) even if there is no evidence to support claims.
x2

It's good for Chicanos to embrace "Aztec" or Mexica identity if it is going to be a stepping stone that inspires them to embrace and research their indigena identities instead of perpetuating of having inferiority complexes, being ashamed, ignorant or superficially proud of their indigenous roots.

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Originally Posted by tecpaocelotl View Post
I'm glad someone posted this. I didn't really want to talk about it until someone questioned it.
This was briefly talked about before by someone who was flaming QMX awhile back. He was saying that we're not all Mexica and this person was corrected by being told that QMX nor anyone else was saying we were all descendants of the Mexica on soy. I'm sure there might have been people who have said this but QMX doesn't propoate this myth as he was being accused of doing.

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Originally Posted by ShyXicana08 View Post
You're right. It shouldn't only be about the Mexica but it is the last "civilization" on our land that we have good records of, the Spaniards did away with most every single piece of our Indigenous heritage, it was planned. Just like they did with the assimilation process here in the states.

Baaba said the same thing about African Americans and Chicanos. He said Blacks during the 60s (and a few still do up until this day) were for the first time demonstrating pride in Black Power as Chicanos were showing Chicano Power as well in response to the institutionalized racism, segregation, lynchings, police brutality, etc. He said the first thing Blacks proudly embraced was that they were royal descendants of the Egyptian kings and queens of Africa just as many Chicanos proudly embrace that they were the descendants of royal Aztec kings and queens of Mexico. He said that it's fine to do that when you first start to gain knowledge of one's indigenous self but that you have to go continously evolve from these intoductory teachings of one's self because not all Blacks were royalty from Egypt and not all Chicanos were royalty from TEnochtitlan.

He said that many of our ancestors came from different tribes and that they did things that Western civilization and Blacks and Chicanos who have been colonized by it for many centuries would deem as evil and satanic such as paganism, polytheism, animal husbandry, psychadelics, polygamy, homosexuality, head hunting, cannibalism, nudity, no concept of private property, sleeping in temporary dwellings like straw huts, etc. He said we've been conditioned that if a race builds permanent massive structures and complex institutions, that it is superior to tribes who are migratory hunters and gathers that use animal skins or plants for temporary dwellings. He says it doesn't matter if a tribe doesn't build large stone structures and writing systems or worships more than one God and isn't Christian or Muslim? At least they know how to live in harmony and balance with Mother Earth and know how to honor her without desecrating her with manmade temples, permanent dwellings, dogma, etc.

He said he thinks the reason why many Blacks and Chicanos do this is because we've been colonized by the same slave masters for over 500 years, and White colonial institutions for many centuries have openly and arrogantly exalted their White race as being superior because they are the father's of civilization, democracy, architecture, art, medicine, science, mathematics, astronomy, etc. in order to justify their racial and religious racial superiority, domination, genocide and slavery of indigenous non-whites in the continents of AFrica and America. He says it is a natural response for colonized Blacks and Chicanos to embrace the civilizations of the Egyptians and Aztecs because it disproves the white man's claim as being the father and mother of civilzation. He also said that it is superficially cooler to be associated with a "civilized" race that is famous for having developed its own system of writing and built massive structures prior to or independently from white civilzation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QMX View Post
Tlacuilo, I believe I answered your similar sentiments in another thread which I shall repost here.

Perhaps studying the collective Chicano experience and scenario would answer part of your question. Many people here don't know their history or even think they are Native people. The ones that do acknowledge a lil something know that they are "part Aztec." I am no spokesperson for Mexica Movement but I commend their efforts to give the Chicano youth and people a base of knowledge and inspiration in which to identify themselves.
In a time where the colonial term Latino is king and Mexican people dont know they are Indians. Mexica identity is the perfect antidote to anchor the Chicano masses into their (true) indigenous heritage. I believe it inevitable that once people evolve in their indigenous studies (and hopefully spirituality and traditions) they will easily lean to and respect their proper genetic/cultural Native nation.
I once frequented Mexica Movement events but eventually grew out of (some) their ideaologies. They are mostly a political organization and don't partake in (nor respectfully acknowledge) ceremony or practical application of traditional ways. I know I am of Purhepecha and Nahua lineage, and even though I acknowledge that fact, I still proclaim Mexicah/Xicano. I feel it is the necessary bridge of identity for the collective Chicano people to escape the fateful spell of "Latino." Perhaps in Mexico it might be a different scenario.



Of course you don't take into consideration the estimcentage of Natives, Europeans, and Africans. The non-indian percentage never rached more than 12-15% of the population. And if I am correct in stating , that was just the estimate in the valley of Mexico.
x2

I'm very glad that the Mexica Movement, M.E.Ch.A., Brown Berets de Aztlan, and other Chicano youth organizations that exist to resist colonialism and the detrimental effects of it on the Chicano community. I'm glad that they are sparking awareness among Chicano youth and inspiring them to stop gang banging and killing their gente, learning who they are where they come from, and owning their indigenous heritage that is rooted in this continent prior to 1492, 1521 and 1821-48. Each of these various Chicano groups are stepping stones for Chicano youth and adults who want to gain knowledge of self and I salute any indigenous Chicano who takes as many steps possible to reclaim their stolen and supressed indigenous identities.

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Originally Posted by miguelito21 View Post
Thanks Tlacuilo. As always, you are a great source of information and inspiration.
x2

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  #38  
Old 01-29-2009
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

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Originally Posted by Ralo El Dorado View Post
This was briefly talked about before by someone who was flaming QMX awhile back. He was saying that we're not all Mexica and this person was corrected by being told that QMX nor anyone else was saying we were all descendants of the Mexica on soy. I'm sure there might have been people who have said this but QMX doesn't propoate this myth as he was being accused of doing.
That person you were mention didn't back it up with facts.
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Old 01-29-2009
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

Great post Ralo, for real. Very interesting.

I'll look those names up, but if you aldready have a few links or references, it'll be appreciated.
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Old 01-29-2009
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

Good post Ralo.
I should've cleared it up that starting off with discussing Mexica culture (as it does unite Mexican & Central 'American' heritage.) is what I believe in.
as one proceeds to know more about our heritage though, we should definitely dive into our extensive heritage as a whole..

I should've mentioned it that way instead of typing up a huge paragraph.



good stuff.
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Old 01-29-2009
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

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Originally Posted by Ralo El Dorado View Post
... from those groups began to embrace their "Azteca, Spanish, and African or Mestizo" history as they would display on a 3 face amulet that depicted the fusion of these 3 races.
That is incorrect it has nothing to do with African...stop spreading false African propaganda. This image also is on the cover of a book, but I cannot remember the name of the book.

According to Salvador Roberto Torres, an early Chicano activist and artist and one of the founders of the Centro Cultural de la Raza and Chicano Park, "The symbol of the three face image, the Spanish (European), the Native, and ... the Mestizo, the child of both.
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Old 01-29-2009
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^^ There were actually more blacks in Mexico than Spanish people at one point.

In conclusion, most Mexicans today are most likely not descendants of the Mexica - Get over it. That means you Mexica-Movement
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Old 01-29-2009
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

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Originally Posted by miguelito21 View Post
Great post Ralo, for real. Very interesting.

I'll look those names up, but if you aldready have a few links or references, it'll be appreciated.
If I find any of Rocky's or Baaba's writings or videos of them online, I'll forward them to you. I've posted a video of Baaba in the were it brieflly shows him talking about animism and indigenous culture in a thread titled Non-Duality VS. Duality in the religion forum. You should check that out when you get the chance

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Originally Posted by ShyXicana08 View Post
Good post Ralo.
I should've cleared it up that starting off with discussing Mexica culture (as it does unite Mexican & Central 'American' heritage.) is what I believe in.
as one proceeds to know more about our heritage though, we should definitely dive into our extensive heritage as a whole..

I should've mentioned it that way instead of typing up a huge paragraph.



good stuff.
Yeah, Rocky really encouraged us to do that and go beyond wearing a t-shirts with an Aztec calendar or an Aztec Warrior holding that damsel in distress if we want to reclaim our indigenous heritage and show our pride in it. It was cool to read briefly about Rocky in Ohitika Woman because Rocky's brother ended up marrying Mary Bravebird and in that book Mary mentions the indigenous Nation that Rocky belongs to. If you got that book, you can look it up.

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Originally Posted by godisred View Post
That is incorrect it has nothing to do with African...stop spreading false African propaganda. This image also is on the cover of a book, but I cannot remember the name of the book.

According to Salvador Roberto Torres, an early Chicano activist and artist and one of the founders of the Centro Cultural de la Raza and Chicano Park, "The symbol of the three face image, the Spanish (European), the Native, and ... the Mestizo, the child of both.
I'm not intentionally spreading false AFrican propaganda, I'm just saying something that I heard and mistakenly misconstrued since it was many years ago that I first heard Rocky break down the Red Road, Xicano indigenous identity and in her deep involvement in the Chicano Movement since her youth and her work in the International Indian Treaty Council at Geneva. She's the first person I was very fortunate to have met when I was a senior in high school who broke down alot of Chicano Movement history and Red Road philosophy of self-determination, freedom, independence, sovereignty, etc. practices as using tobacco, copal, sweetgrass, sage, Sun Dancing, peyote, etc. ceremonially when I was invited to visit the Chicano House at CSUN by a MEChista from there who highly encouraged me to hear Rocky speak. I had no clue who the hell she was or what she was going to talk about and I'm very grateful to have learned many things from her that evening that I had never heard before in my life although most of what she said was difficult to grasp since I had never been exposed to Xicano identity or the Red Road prior to my visit to CSUN. She spoke for about 6 to 7 hours and had the students from CSUN, UCLA, USC, and other CSUs and me enthralled with the history and indigenous knowledge she was breaking down. So please stop spreading false accusations that I'm "spreading false African propaganda" and thanks for breaking down what the 3 faced amulet widely worn by Chicanos during the early years of the Chicano student movement because I'm sure that's what she was referring to although I misunderstood Rocky and someone else who was talking about La Raza Cosmica theory.
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

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So please stop spreading false accusations that I'm "spreading false African propaganda"
First it is not a false accusation, since you clearly admitted stating it. Now had you not stated it and I stated that you did, that would be a false accusation.
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Old 01-29-2009
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

@ ralo, yeah I was wondering if Rocky was a relative of the same Rocky that joined the standoff at wounded knee.
I loved that book. good stuff.
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Old 01-29-2009
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

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If I find any of Rocky's or Baaba's writings or videos of them online, I'll forward them to you.
Thanks a lot.

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Originally Posted by Ralo
I've posted a video of Baaba in the were it brieflly shows him talking about animism and indigenous culture in a thread titled Non-Duality VS. Duality in the religion forum. You should check that out when you get the chance
Ok, I definitely will.


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Originally Posted by godisred
First it is not a false accusation
Then it is a mistaken one.

Ralo made a mistake while trying to give a short account of "Rocky" Rodriguez' speech, which was years ago. That does not equate to "spreading false propaganda".
Moreover, he clearly wrote "Azteca, Spanish, and African or Mestizo", showing he wasn't sure which one it was.
Finally, is there even a "false African propaganda" (whatever that means) arguing that the 3 face amulet represents the Spanish, Native and African "races" to begin with?
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Old 01-29-2009
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Then it is a mistaken one.
I stand corrected, my apologies to Ralo.

As for the false African Propaganda, as in the Olmec were African.
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Old 01-29-2009
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

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First it is not a false accusation, since you clearly admitted stating it. Now had you not stated it and I stated that you did, that would be a false accusation.

edit...apologies accepted
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

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As for the false African Propaganda, as in the Olmec were African.
Oh yeah I read about that one. Rather annoying and pretty weak arguments if I remember correctly.


edit: to Ralo: Dude, he said he was mistaken and apologised.
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Default Re: Reflection of our genealogical fixation with the Mexica.

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edit: to Ralo: Dude, he said he was mistaken and apologised.
I was not mistaken, that's too nice, I was straight out wrong.
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