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  #1  
Old 03-16-2005
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Default Exploiting the church to know your indigenous identity...

When I was a vendor at the Mexica New Year in San Jose, a woman came up to me and she was asking me how she could find out what native back ground and how much (I thought this was weird bc I was only selling shirts, copal, and ojo de venados.). I told her where is she from. She told me from New Mexico. I told her there is a chance that she could find out. I told her if her ancestors were catholic that there is a chance to find out. Usually, the church has your family tree and tells you who married who and the farther you go, the more the priest who wrote the documents get more specific on your family. If you can go back before the 1800's, then you're in luck bc they tell you native or non native, then if you go 100 years or more then they tell you what they are and if you go even 100 year before that, there are chances on telling you what clan. The woman smile, said thank you and left.

Here are a few things you guys can also do:

1. Find out how far you can go on your family tree from your family. The farther you can go, the better.

2. Either go to the church that your ancestors went or if that's too far, go to the nearest Mormon church (I'm serious. The Mormon church has more documents of catholic churches in Mexico than the churches here in the US. They know more about us than we do about ourselves which is creepy.).

3. If the church documents don't tell you anything (small chance), then chances are the indigenous group that was there a long time ago are you ancestors.

I'm still at step one.
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Old 03-16-2005
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thanks a bunch, to bad that wont help on my dads side. my grandfather on his side has told me that our familt changed their name when they came across, and that he doesnt know, and it is very unlikely his sister know either. on my grandmothers side, they really dotn know either.

my moms side, we know a bit more. my great great grandmother was full aztec and my great great grandfather was full spaniard. or so i have been told. we know we are mixed with more somewhere down the line there was a part irish and i believe another native bloodline, we believe it is APACHE from the similarity in pictures to those who are full blooded Apache. but that is not certain.
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Old 03-16-2005
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Knowing some of your roots is better than not knowing nothing...
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Old 03-16-2005
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its funny about the mormons.

they conduct research in mexico and guatemala to try and prove that jesus visited the americas, as part of thier beLIEfs.

be very careful when dealing with them or their research, they have religious motives.
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Old 03-17-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zapatasbloodjv
its funny about the mormons.

they conduct research in mexico and guatemala to try and prove that jesus visited the americas, as part of thier beLIEfs.

be very careful when dealing with them or their research, they have religious motives.
They also believe that we're the last tribe of iseral (LOL), but you have to know their main purpose of the documents. Back when mormons were racist, they only wanted pure white members and to do so, they took copies of all documents from all over the world to prove if a member was pure white or not. They believe people from this continent (north and south america) were descendents of Cain (LOL). Luckily, bc of their racist beliefs, they have all these documents for easy access. Just take a friend with you (you of you guys have to be big and maybe mean looking) when you go. Usually, this center is in the back of their church.
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Old 03-20-2005
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I went a few days ago to the Mormon church with two of my friends. What I found out that majority of the documents are in Salt Lake City. They have reference and for more info, either the stuff there and if the item is not there, then we have to place a hold on the item. They also have ancestory.com (they are subcribed to it) and I could only find my grandfather (they don't have Mexican documents from Mexico which sucks). The only reason why I could find my grandpa was bc he got his ss in the 60's. I haven't checked the other programs (they have a lot).
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Old 04-13-2005
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Learned more while I was at my parents. The town that my indigena abuelo was from lost all their documents due to the cristero war. Luckily, a lot of the documentation are with the government and nearby churches. The most farest according to my uncle is until the 1860's.
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Old 08-09-2005
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Reviving this for those who are looking for their identity.
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Old 08-09-2005
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well basically i had like a project about this and i had to
ask mii g-mabecause mii mom anly new her g-parentsand
mom and dad.
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Old 08-09-2005
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Default RE: identity

Hopefully, people know that the last names of Native peoples in this hemisphere are primarily slave names just like the Africans got slaves names under white ownership. Tecpaocelotl can attest to that himself--given that his grandfather's surname was "Manzo." Manzo is a name "given" to a New Mexico Pueblo group that now partly resides in my local area of Las Cruces, NM. The "Manso" like other Pueblo groups suffered a terrible fate in the vicious hands of the Spanish slavemasters. Several Pueblo groups were captured by the Spanish and then taken as slaves to other parts of New Mexico and into Mexico too. Later, the Anglos did the same thing. In the mid-1800s, thousands of Dine (Navajo) and Mescalero Apaches (Inde) were captured by U.S. military forces who forced Native men, women, and children to endure the 400-mile "Long Walk" to the prison (concentration) camp at Bosque Redondo, Fort Sumner.
See:
http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/14416.html

So, my point is researching an imposed "Spanish" slave name is just that. It might lead to an indication about one's indigenous ancestry--as a captured slave; it may even lead to the "tribe" that the Spanish renamed themselves like in the case of "Manzo" for tecpaocelotl, but in most all cases--it does not necessarily mean one is Spanish.

Spaniards are white people with distinct characteristics like lighter brown or blonde hair and eyes (hazel, green or even blue) and with genetic traits like male pattern baldness and overall body hairiness, especialy on the trunk. They have narrow beady eyes, narrow long faces and features, thin lips and rounded eyes. Spaniards have pointy facial features and pointy chins (just look at their profiles) like other Europeans. They also have pear-shaped body types (with big hips and/or big asses) just like other white people or like Africans. Of course, being overweight or pumping iron will distort/alter these features like any other group.

In contrast, indigenous people have almond shaped eyes, high cheek bones, broad faces and features, full lips, wide mouths, dark, dark brown or reddish brown or black hair and an overall lack of body hair, especially on the trunk. Native people have a range of skin color from dark brown, red brown to light brown, "tan", or bronzed skin. The Native profile reveals a mostly flatter facial profile with facial features which do not protrude out like Europeans. The Native chin is small and unprotruding. The Native body type is T-shaped with broad shoulder and chest region (larger busted for Native women), and narrow hips (meaning little to no ass). This is completely opposite of Europeans and Africans (once again, being overweight and/or working out and pumping iron will alter this configuration). Also of course, if one has some European ancestry mixed with native ancestry, the characteristics might show a composite of both lineages.

So on that note, I think it makes more sense to study your body type and features to find out which "tribe" you may descend from, rather than searching for European documents which in most cases, only reveals a slave history. There are people on this messageboard whose picture I've seen and I can tell which Native group whom they most resemble. Searching the church documents might be helpful for some but not all because some Native groups had nothing to do with the church. This was the case with my own family in my paternal lineage. My grandmother had a Nahua nickname and had absolutely nothing to do with the Catholic Church. She was NOT Christian.
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Old 08-09-2005
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I should put my family tree here. I have a lot of last names that aren't Spanish country origin.
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Old 08-09-2005
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Right now my org has a chance to get a large sum in grant money if all the board members are from a tribe. I haven't said anything and the executive director has been bugging me on what tribe I am from.
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Old 08-10-2005
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As you notice in the family tree, on the Manzo bloodline, there is other last names which have non-spanish country origin. For example Llamas. Supposely, my family gets that from some spaniard calling us Llamitas (which I have no idea what that is) and that's how we get Llamas. Also, the last name Solorio origins is in the Southwest..
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  #14  
Old 08-21-2005
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Default RE: Manso

Quote:
Originally Posted by tecpaocelotl
As you notice in the family tree, on the Manzo bloodline, there is other last names which have non-spanish country origin. For example Llamas. Supposely, my family gets that from some spaniard calling us Llamitas (which I have no idea what that is) and that's how we get Llamas. Also, the last name Solorio origins is in the Southwest..
Hey Tecpa, you may be interested in contacting some of the Piro-Manso-Tiwa people here in Las Cruces. I met some of them at a native function last year. I know a lady named "Nati" and she is affiliated with the Rivers Academy here in Las Cruces (link below). I suggest that you visit the Rivers Academy website, and you will find some Piro-Manso-Tiwa contact names there. Good luck!

Rivers Academy

http://www.riversacademy.org/intro.html
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Old 08-21-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citlalin
In the mid-1800s, thousands of Dine (Navajo) and Mescalero Apaches (Inde) were captured by U.S. military forces who forced Native men, women, and children to endure the 400-mile "Long Walk" to the prison (concentration) camp at Bosque Redondo, Fort Sumner.
See:
I did not know this, thank you, i will have to do more looking into this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by citlalin
eyes (hazel, green or even blue) and with genetic traits like male pattern baldness and overall body hairiness,
sadly i have those, but i know i have a spanish grandpa, at least one, or well great grandpa, freshly arrived from spain is what i was told. from what i am told soemtimes my eyes are almond shaped and sometimes they are just round, but my eyes also change colors depending on my mood, so i dont know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by citlalin
eyes (hazel, green or even blue) and with genetic traits like male pattern baldness and overall body hairiness,
Tell me which one i might resemble. I know i have some Mexica blood in me, the great great grandmother that married the spaniard was full blooded Mexica, or as i am also just told. INformation is scarce on the exact where abouts and what not, but of that they are sure. I have a great grandmother on my mothers side, she has native or had native features, so i know there is another native blood line in there, i saw it in her, she resembled pictures i have seen of old Apache females, so i want to say maybe Apache, but i am not to sure.
My dad side, i know practically nothing, all i know is that his father, my grand-dad they took on our last name when thjey corssed over, but he was very very young and doesnt remember the original last name and has only been back to his home town once i believe, long long time ago, he doesnt remember where just that it was past Guadalajara. I do know from him i get the body hair, the inextremeness of the body hair varies through generation, sometimes totally skipping one and hitting the next hard, like my brother has very light body hair, chest and some back, but i recieved the whole thing. Okay i guess i am rambling.
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Old 08-21-2005
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Default RE: Nelio

wow Nelio, I have not seen enough photos and profiles of you or your family to tell who looks like who. I'm not trying to be disrespectful in any way, but I know that the characteristics of male pattern baldness actually are inherited from European maternal lineages (not the male). The gene is on the X-chromosome, so any offspring from European mothers or maternal lineages will result in the pattern showing up in the sons and daughters. The same goes for hairy ears believe it or not. Luckily for me, I did not inherit any European X-chromosomes, but many of my uncles on my mom's side did and nearly all of them have male pattern baldness (they are Spaniards for sure).

I do know that the characteristic of almond shaped eyes is highly conserved. By this, I mean the characteristic is passed down even with admixture with European lineages. I observed this in my own family as a few of my cousins turned out white (because of having a white father or mother), but their eyes are still asiatic, Native American looking eyes.

As far as being "Mexica" -- it is certainly possible, especially if you have family from central Mexico; however, most people who think they are Mexica or even "Mexican" are not. Some are actually Mayans or belong to one of the other "Mexican" groups listed below:

Mexico's/Anahauc's native groups include: Huichol, Tarascan, Otomi, Yaqui, Raramuri, Zapotec, Mixtec, Mixe, Maya , Pai Pai, Seri, Tlaxcalan, Manso, Chichimeca, Tolteca, Tenocha, Acolhua of Texcoco, Tepaneca, Culhua, Chalca, Xochimilca, Huexotzinca of Puebla, Malinalca of Malinalco, Tlahuica of Morelos, Onk Akimel O' Odham, Tohono O' Odham, Opata, Mayo, Concho, Tepehuán, Chalca, Matlatzinca of Toluca Valley, Tepanecs, Coatlinchans, Cholcos, Cholulas, Tlacopan, Mazaguas etc. etc. etc...there are thousands of indigenous villages.

The characteristic of the Mexica from Tenochtitlan can be observed by studying the "Aztec" codices. The shape of the face is triangular, heart-shaped or oval shaped with a small chin, broader cheekbones, and pursed, full-lips. I have a photo (below) of one of my favorite Nahua dancers named "Gerardo Tristan Alvarado." Notice the triangular shape of the face. Other Mexica "Nahua" look more like Olmecs, and still others look more like the northern tribes of Mexico, with finer features.

So the possibilities of which "tribe" one descends from are open to interpretation and further study. I suggest that you gather as many photos of your family as possible and study them as well as continue to do research into your lineages.

Guadalajara is a well known colonial city, occupied primarily by Spaniards. However, there are thousands of villages which surround the greater colonial cities and the movement of Native Peoples into greater urban regions is certainly possible and has already happened.

well I hope this helps...each person really needs to do their own personal family research and to find out as much information possible from as many different sources as possible. I think Tecpaocelotl has done a fine job of offering clues to help people get started. Excellent job Tecpa!

Nahua Mihtotiani "Gerardo Tristan Alvarado"

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Old 08-21-2005
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Default Re: RE: identity

Quote:
Originally Posted by citlalin
Hopefully, people know that the last names of Native peoples in this hemisphere are primarily slave names just like the Africans got slaves names under white ownership. Tecpaocelotl can attest to that himself--given that his grandfather's surname was "Manzo." Manzo is a name "given" to a New Mexico Pueblo group that now partly resides in my local area of Las Cruces, NM. The "Manso" like other Pueblo groups suffered a terrible fate in the vicious hands of the Spanish slavemasters. Several Pueblo groups were captured by the Spanish and then taken as slaves to other parts of New Mexico and into Mexico too. Later, the Anglos did the same thing. In the mid-1800s, thousands of Dine (Navajo) and Mescalero Apaches (Inde) were captured by U.S. military forces who forced Native men, women, and children to endure the 400-mile "Long Walk" to the prison (concentration) camp at Bosque Redondo, Fort Sumner.
See:
http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/14416.html

So, my point is researching an imposed "Spanish" slave name is just that. It might lead to an indication about one's indigenous ancestry--as a captured slave; it may even lead to the "tribe" that the Spanish renamed themselves like in the case of "Manzo" for tecpaocelotl, but in most all cases--it does not necessarily mean one is Spanish.

Spaniards are white people with distinct characteristics like lighter brown or blonde hair and eyes (hazel, green or even blue) and with genetic traits like male pattern baldness and overall body hairiness, especialy on the trunk. They have narrow beady eyes, narrow long faces and features, thin lips and rounded eyes. Spaniards have pointy facial features and pointy chins (just look at their profiles) like other Europeans. They also have pear-shaped body types (with big hips and/or big asses) just like other white people or like Africans. Of course, being overweight or pumping iron will distort/alter these features like any other group.

In contrast, indigenous people have almond shaped eyes, high cheek bones, broad faces and features, full lips, wide mouths, dark, dark brown or reddish brown or black hair and an overall lack of body hair, especially on the trunk. Native people have a range of skin color from dark brown, red brown to light brown, "tan", or bronzed skin. The Native profile reveals a mostly flatter facial profile with facial features which do not protrude out like Europeans. The Native chin is small and unprotruding. The Native body type is T-shaped with broad shoulder and chest region (larger busted for Native women), and narrow hips (meaning little to no ass). This is completely opposite of Europeans and Africans (once again, being overweight and/or working out and pumping iron will alter this configuration). Also of course, if one has some European ancestry mixed with native ancestry, the characteristics might show a composite of both lineages.

So on that note, I think it makes more sense to study your body type and features to find out which "tribe" you may descend from, rather than searching for European documents which in most cases, only reveals a slave history. There are people on this messageboard whose picture I've seen and I can tell which Native group whom they most resemble. Searching the church documents might be helpful for some but not all because some Native groups had nothing to do with the church. This was the case with my own family in my paternal lineage. My grandmother had a Nahua nickname and had absolutely nothing to do with the Catholic Church. She was NOT Christian.
I look at my ex who is Tarahumara -- he has dark bronze skin, no body hair, straight thick black hair, full lips, wide nose, high cheekbones, broad shoulders and chest and narrow hips. It is obvious that he is native.

But me, I have the darkest eyes and hair out of all of my family and yet my skin is the lightest. I don't even have hair on my arms. People constantly ask me what I am and even more so in Mexico City which surprises me.

Genetics are facinating.
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Old 08-21-2005
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Default Re: RE: identity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda
I look at my ex who is Tarahumara -- he has dark bronze skin, no body hair, straight thick black hair, full lips, wide nose, high cheekbones, broad shoulders and chest and narrow hips. It is obvious that he is native.

But me, I have the darkest eyes and hair out of all of my family and yet my skin is the lightest. I don't even have hair on my arms. People constantly ask me what I am and even more so in Mexico City which surprises me.

Genetics are facinating.
Yes, genetics are fascinating! I've studied genetics (literally the science itself) and know a lot about peoples' ancestries more so than they know themsleves. This is not to brag, but it's what I studied in school.

It is possible (although uncommon) to have white or very light skin and still retain some native ancestry, such as the darker features of hair, skin, and eyes which are dominant.

It's interesting that you pointed out about people questioning your ethnicity in Mexico City. Believe it or not, many, many brown "Mexicans," especially rural Mexican regions have NEVER seen a white person! If you think I am kidding, I am not.

My brother is a school teacher in the Houston region. One day a new "Spanish-speaking" student joined the classroom. He was obviously white (of Spanish descent) and very different looking than his brown Spanish-speaking classmates. The brown Mexican students in the class were completely dumbfounded because here was a white kid speaking Spanish! None had ever seen it before! So my point is, although Spanish is definitely a European language spoken by those of Spanish descent, most speakers of the Spanish language today (in this hemisphere) are actually Native Peoples, some who have never even seen a white person in their entire life!

I recently returned from a region of Mexico (Zihuatanejo, Gro.) where I saw no white people at all in the general area! I had to go to specific tourist spots and (at the airport) is only where I saw whites/Spaniards and Amerikans.
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Old 08-21-2005
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wow all of this is very interesting.. i too have made a little research on my family histroy... im only fifteen and yet i think i now more about my family than a lot of people would think... once in school a substitue teacher asked me if i was german because of my last name which is frausto (its not very common)... he told me he new a couple of people of german decesnt with my last name... that caught my eye... my dad told me that his grandmothers side of the family came to the U>S. to KAnsas to work on the railroad tracks in the early 1900's... i found that very interesting... my dads side of the family range in many different features... in both sides of my family light skinned and light eyes are common just as very dark skin and black eyes so its very hard to tell...myself i am very light skinned with green eyes a lot of people aske me if im from guadalajara which im not, both of my parents were born in michoacan....but thats all i know... form my mothers side of the family i think my mothers last name is spanish its castel... i would like to research more on my family history do any of you guys know where can i begin? any search engines in mind, books, websites?
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Old 08-21-2005
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Thanks citlalin, no disrespect taken. I have always try to get more info about my lineage as possible. It is just hard for me, since most of my elders that would or should know, either were never told or they themselves never asked, or the ones that might know, have already passed on. Still i hold hope in finding more clues, when i can.
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Old 08-21-2005
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Nelio, do you have any baby photos and/or other photos of yourself and other family members?

The reason I ask is because sometimes I can see "characteristics" by examing photos. I have a friend from Saltillo, Mx who "looks" very European, Spanish looking, and so does his wife. Yet, my friend claimed Mexica ancestry! My friend was happy to share his family photos with me. When I saw a picture of some of his family members, including his son...I was then totally convinced that he had some Mexica ancestry. His son, although he looked primarily European, he had the almond shaped eyes of the Mexica. Another nephew looked distinctly Mexica. So, here is an example where studying the extended family might help, especially if there is a mixture of European and Native.

On another occasion, I had a white friend who believed that he may of had Native ancestry on his father's side. But after I saw images, the people were actually Italians with typical European features, only slightly darker hair.

And believe it or not, I have quite a few of very Native-looking cousins who actually believe just the opposite: that they are Europeans! They're brown and native looking, but they see themselves as being white. It's so strange, but everyone's reality is different, if not downright bizaare like the Twilight Zone.
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Old 08-21-2005
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Citlaln i do have some baby photos on my computer and some of my older sister when she was a kid and some of my nephews and even some recent ones of my mother, but thats about alli have of my family, on my computer, when i get more family pictures scanned in, i will appraoch you once more, but thanks, i will be in contact.
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Old 08-22-2005
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Default Re: RE: Manso

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Originally Posted by citlalin
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Originally Posted by tecpaocelotl
As you notice in the family tree, on the Manzo bloodline, there is other last names which have non-spanish country origin. For example Llamas. Supposely, my family gets that from some spaniard calling us Llamitas (which I have no idea what that is) and that's how we get Llamas. Also, the last name Solorio origins is in the Southwest..
Hey Tecpa, you may be interested in contacting some of the Piro-Manso-Tiwa people here in Las Cruces. I met some of them at a native function last year. I know a lady named "Nati" and she is affiliated with the Rivers Academy here in Las Cruces (link below). I suggest that you visit the Rivers Academy website, and you will find some Piro-Manso-Tiwa contact names there. Good luck!

Rivers Academy

http://www.riversacademy.org/intro.html
Funny part was when I introduce my roommate (who has Manso blood), my mom tripped bc she thought it was an "extinct" tribe. My mom's side of the family has always told us that we were part Mexica/ part other tribes. At least I know the other tribes were correct.
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Old 08-22-2005
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Originally Posted by Nelio
Citlaln i do have some baby photos on my computer and some of my older sister when she was a kid and some of my nephews and even some recent ones of my mother, but thats about alli have of my family, on my computer, when i get more family pictures scanned in, i will appraoch you once more, but thanks, i will be in contact.
Great! Every little bit helps. Let me know as you are able to get the images together. Maybe you can send them to me by email or upload them online if you have some server space somewhere. Looking forward to seeing them!
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Old 08-27-2005
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I don't even know what to say, so much information.

I've always wondered what tribe/s my family decended from. If I had to guess, I would say Mayan (my mother's family is from Guerrero) and maybe Guamares or Pames (father's side is from Guanajuato)?
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