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Old 06-09-2013
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Post Feminism & the Disposable Male

Although controversial and western, the points raised by this lady are worth considering.

I am particularly curious as to peoples opinions on this. I would be thrilled to dialogue with you all over this.

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Old 06-14-2013
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Default Re: Feminism & the Disposable Male

As a feminist, there are points that I agree with.

I do think that society does value woman and children differently. For example, the crime that is going on in Mexico right now. Many say we don't kill women and children, as if men don't matter. It scares me more for my father to travel alone in Mexico than for my mother.

In comparison to what others in this forum think I believe, I do valuable men, and the roles that they play. I love my father, my uncles, my boyfriend. I do see the effects that society has on them, I have such a hard time getting my boyfriend to express himself in a deeper level, and I know that is part of what society expects "boys don't cry" "quit crying like a girl". They are the expected protector and to be brave, hide their fear etc and I do not think that is okay either.

The she talks about feminism, and how it reinforces all of what she stated before. Here is where start to disagree. I think at this point she is talking more about the White, higher income feminist movement. I see that she is White, so as a White woman she has had more credibility than a men of color, and I do not think that is right. For example, when the slaves had just been freed, many white woman claimed rape, and many, many black men were given the death penalty. Do I think that is fair no, do I think that every single of those women was telling the truth simply because she was a women, of course not. However, that depicts an example where a woman's voice and safety was valued more than a man's. However, when a black woman made the same claim, the results were not the same, it shows a disparity. The security of women is not always valued first, the security of white women however is.

As a Chicana feminist it is a double sword, I stand for the rights of women, but I also stand for the human rights of my people, especially Mexican immigrants. I would put the needs of a Mexican boy before those of a white girl, especially if there is an income disparity. (Unless they were both my students then I will attend to them equally). You get what I am saying though.

I do not think society is wrong in giving women shelters from domestic violence, etc. Should they be denied to men? No. Should men be made fun of because they are getting abused by women? No. Does it happen? Yes, I know someone personally who suffered domestic violence from their partner.

Honestly, I don't think that she quite understands the feminist movement, or maybe I am the one who doesn't get it. I stand for human rights first, human rights for everyone regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, ability etc. I also stand for the rights of immigrant workers, I do not think that simply because they are men they should take the hard work, underpaid hours, hazardous conditions, etc. I do not believe. However, I am also a feminist, I do not think it is okay that currently there are less than 20% of women in the house of representatives when at least 50% of the population is women. I do not think it is acceptable that only 4% of women are CEO's in Fortune 1000 list. I am not saying this is simply because men are more valued in this field and they automatically become CEO's. I do believe it is a combination of factors, including the fact that maybe women do not want to be CEO's. I know that I do not want that, however, there are factors that are unique to women etc.

Okay I realize that I am rambling, but finally to touch on one of her points, as a feminist, I do not encourage society reinforcing gender stereotypes, like because you are a girl your feelings matter and because you are a boy they don't. I deeply believe it is part of feminism to fight these gender stereotypes not to reinforce them, and I do not think she gets this.
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Old 06-14-2013
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Default Re: Feminism & the Disposable Male

Interesting indeed.

"Men don't even get our admiration anymore... all they get in return, is to hear about what assholes they are" lolzzz
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Old 06-14-2013
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Default Re: Feminism & the Disposable Male

Quote:
Originally Posted by _aztec_princess_ View Post
As a feminist, there are points that I agree with.

I do think that society does value woman and children differently. For example, the crime that is going on in Mexico right now. Many say we don't kill women and children, as if men don't matter. It scares me more for my father to travel alone in Mexico than for my mother.

In comparison to what others in this forum think I believe, I do valuable men, and the roles that they play. I love my father, my uncles, my boyfriend. I do see the effects that society has on them, I have such a hard time getting my boyfriend to express himself in a deeper level, and I know that is part of what society expects "boys don't cry" "quit crying like a girl". They are the expected protector and to be brave, hide their fear etc and I do not think that is okay either.



http://youtu.be/Zr162OZ2Z0w
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Old 06-15-2013
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Default Re: Feminism & the Disposable Male

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Originally Posted by Nelio View Post
Although admittedly the majority of people who have died in the war are man, let's not forget that there are women in combat and that they too have died for our nation.

Let's also not forget that many women have been victims of war, even if soldiers did not kill them, they have been raped and mistreated by soldiers. You can google Ghosts of Rwanda or My Lai massacre, for examples.

So please tell me when was the last time that you gave up your spot in a boat for a women in a burning cruise, etc
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Old 06-15-2013
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Default Re: Feminism & the Disposable Male

I gave up my seat a few times within this yr 2013. Wasnt a cruise ship.

Though i would only give it up for a mother with a child or an older women, same with a man. Or if they looked worn out. If I see your able bodied then you mean nothing to me in the form of any type of sympathy .

It also doeant matter how many women have died in combat. It is percieved that they should never have died in the first place. Lok back on this site at the thread about women in combat. Or maybe i am thinking fb. PLENTY men and women didnt see or wouldnt see a woman in combat just because they were raised to be protective of women. Mindset is still there.

And sure, women usually get shit end of the stick from an enemy army/force. It always bad. Don't need to google them. Its happened throughout history for centuries.
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Old 06-17-2013
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Default Re: Feminism & the Disposable Male

Quote:
Originally Posted by _aztec_princess_ View Post
Although admittedly the majority of people who have died in the war are man, let's not forget that there are women in combat and that they too have died for our nation.

Let's also not forget that many women have been victims of war, even if soldiers did not kill them, they have been raped and mistreated by soldiers. You can google Ghosts of Rwanda or My Lai massacre, for examples.
Ive read all of your responses and Ruth Ive got to give you respect for the diplomacy you excercised. I feel you raised great points that I greatly appreciate you sharing.

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So please tell me when was the last time that you gave up your spot in a boat for a women in a burning cruise, etc
I will address this below with my response to sweetnspicy

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Originally Posted by sweetnspicy79 View Post
How do men get disposed? This woman is a fucking idiot.
Nothing this woman is talking about is reality.
A life boat?! Pinche pendeja.
I respect the fact that you have never benefited from sexism in your life, but my childhood was a polar opposite. So please hear me out and attempt to put your fire and brimstone on the shelf and have an open mind.

My father raised me in the same old school Chicano tradition that his father raised him and his father raised him. Ive never seen him hit a female but he hit all of us males and we learned to live with it as normal. I laugh when I hear people whine about how hard mexican moms hit. My pops has been lifting weights his whole life and mauls like a grizzly bear. I learned pain, fear, and what it meant to have coals permanently burning in my solar plexus. Our family was blatantly sexist in favor of the females. My father was the enforcer of the family, he disciplined all the males whether they be myself, brothers or cousins but he pampered the shit out of the females. I learned at an early age several things.

I learned:

1. If a female instigated a problem nothing would happen to them, but if I responded I got hit because I was the male. I saw my brother get physically beat for getting upset at stuff female relatives instigated knowing they were untouchable because they were female. I saw my cousin physically beaten because of bullshit his sisters instigated while they werent hit but instead treated like victims because they were female.

I remember getting my ass literally mauled for stuff that I didnt even do and then later finding out it was a prima who had did it and lied knowing that the males would automatically get blamed and that meant getting fucked up.

2. I learned that if a battered wife was hit she was a victim, but us getting fucked up as kids didnt matter because we were males so fuck us. People felt more sympathy for an adult than us as kids because the adult was a female and that was more important than us as males. A battered wife who was hit less got more sympathy because she was a female. We were just males so fuck us. Its okay. Leave my body striped up sore with burns and welts and laker colors across our bodies, we were males so we didnt count. A female adult wife who got hit was more important a victim because she was female.

3. My mom never seemed to care about what happened to us when he took us into the bedroom. But if we raised a fist to a female then there was hell to pay. She took hitting a female serious, but us males getting hit was no big deal because we were just boys.

People felt more sorry for animals who got hit than us as male children.

I am rambling but to summarize a response, I grew up in a family where I got beat for shit the female did while the female got off because "It is wrong to beat a female" but fuck us as males, we didnt count. Then afterwards I have to go lie and pretend her "needs" are more important than mine when I am getting fucked up regularly and she isnt because she is a girl. Fuckin bullshit.



I mean no disrespect towards females and I abhor violence towards women (or people) so please refrain from reading into this. I do not have suppressed rage that is prone towards acts of violence towards others so any profiler reading into this all twisted should excercise discernment. But when I think about the things my father made me do when he brought the pain and how the women saw no wrong in it and even were to blame it is so obvious that sexism was a huge factor in the abuse I had to go through as a child against my will.

Code:
 There are too many dynamics happening within each culture,and family system to apply this logic to all experiences.
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Old 06-17-2013
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Smile Re: Feminism & the Disposable Male

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Originally Posted by sweetnspicy79 View Post
There are too many dynamics happening within each culture,and family system to apply this logic to all experiences.
I agree with you. Each family, culture and location is different. Your expirience is a polar oppposite than mine, but both are equally real, serious and deserve their dignity.

I feel you are failing to follow your own advice when you write off everything the lady stated as idiocy. Maybe you dont see it happening but it is and I lived the latter. You cannot write it off as a white problem because my family is just as Mexican as yours.
Her particular examples might have been cliche but the point she was attempting to get at that males are treated as no big deal because of the fact that they are a male is a problem EVERY male has to deal with whether he advertises it or not.

Secondly her point that women dont really respect men like before is also true. In the dating scene men are treated as expendable by females who can play to their hearts delight and throw males away whenever we are no longer convenient or living up to whatever larger than life expectations being set on us. The social scene in our culture here in America is a womens market. It is respectful of her whims at the expense of the male. She can set the most impossible, ridiculous and unreasonable standards on the male and if he doesnt live up to them or satisfy her expectations he knows she can replace him easily. So while she benefits from a surplus, many men are starving for basic attention and interaction she takes for granted in this social economy that devalues the male while teaching the females to carry on as if they are queen bees. The inequality in how much value a female has at the expense of me as a male being robbed of my value is something so many females are blind to or just to inhumane to feel remorse over.

I would like to clarify that not all women are like this and many men are appalling in how they treat women. There is no "one" mold.
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Last edited by REMAINING STRONG; 06-17-2013 at 09:15 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old 06-17-2013
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Default Re: Feminism & the Disposable Male

Reading through your response, RS, I see another angle that I think should be addressed: the underlying idea that females are inherently the weaker sex, thus should not be harmed in any way, shape, or form, while males should be strong, be able to take a beating, since, well, what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger. Imagine the blow to a man's ego if he were prepared to fight someone of roughly equal status, same sex, right then and there, when the other guy looks him up and down and says in a patronizing tone, 'Nah, you're not even worth being hit like a man' and then walks away casually. Now, imagine being seen that way from the time you were born, seen and treated not quite as equal as a man, but maybe slightly better than having the status of a child. Explaining how gender roles hurt males and females can be better understood using an example like this, and it's just one of the issues many feminists are fighting to erase. They're unfair to everyone.

I never had any sisters, so I can't give any detailed information there, but from what I've heard from both my parents, both the boys and the girls were able to and did get physically disciplined. Perhaps the boys more so, being boys and getting into trouble more often, but again - there doesn't seem to be any strong aversion to putting the girls in line if they got out of hand, either by mother or father. Your situation just seems like one where one gender used their privilege to their advantage to get what they wanted.

Is that the only example of male suffering that you have? Because it seems in Mexican culture, guys have several privileges over women that they also exploit shamelessly: the infidelity double standard, for instance. If I had a quarter for every story or statistic where a Latin American guy had a woman on the side, or hopped from bed to bed without much of a reaction from others, well, I'd have enough for a nice 18 year single malt scotch. If you've ever studied the theories of machismo and marianismo, you'll see that the general assumption is that women are the only ones capable of being 'pure', being morally superior and spiritually stronger; men can't help themselves if they cheat, get drunk, or abuse others, since it's in their nature. They're like children who need someone to take care of them, instead, and this is why so many women put up with crap and put the needs of their family first. Virility is a masculine property, encouraged for men, and the opposite for women.

Want another example? The casual misogyny and homophobia that goes on around sites like soy and brownpride. How many times have I seen bitch, slut, whore, aimed at women by other women and men? How many times do you see men and women attacking a guy's manhood by flinging insults like faggot or bringing up his sex life and measurements? Five years ago, I would have thought nothing of it, probably laughed it off and told the person bringing them up that they were being too serious and to get a life. It's normalized, taken for granted, and not until I visited more liberal online communities did I realize just how backwards and oppressive these words could be, and how they contribute to the rigid hierarchy in subtle yet powerful ways.

Being a part of several very diverse and seemingly unrelated online communities, I feel I have a better perspective than those who are only involved with one. For instance, I see the sexism, biphobia, and racism in the gay white community, the sexism and homophobia in the Chicano, racism, transphobia, and sexism in a few white feminist communities. I feel like a silent observer sometimes, being a part and involved in these movements, but also not, being somewhat of a black sheep. An exception. At the same time, it's a lot easier to see how we have more in common in terms of achieving equality, and how our problems are connected in one way or another, even if not obvious at first. In fact, I'd suggest we communities of oppressed groups try to fight the issues related to these areas in our own spheres of influence, first.

Uhm, as far as dating goes, I can see it both ways. While women might know immediately whether or not the guy has a chance, has the choice to reject him on sight, lead him on, etc, it's the man who has the power to choose who he likes, while women are practically the ones 'waiting' for the right one to come along. Sure, they can make changes to their looks, interests, dating environments, but in the end, they have to make due mostly with whatever comes their way. A guy can and is expected to ask whomever he is interested in out, while a woman who does the same might be seen as 'too forward' for many people's tastes. I don't have to play the waiting game and wait for that perfect woman to come along; if I wanted to, I could walk to a crowded mall and ask as many women as I'd like for their numbers and no one would say, 'what a tramp', and instead might be praised for being so brave and confident in myself. Rejection can happen to anyone, but for those who put themselves out there, I have nothing but admiration and respect for, because they don't have to.

There's so much more I could bring up, and I've learned so much in the past two years or so, discussing these issues with LGBT, feminists, and really, anyone who is aware of the problems. At first, I didn't see the whole picture, didn't really care, being male and 'unaffected' by what inequalities women faced, until learning that they didn't exist in some social vacuum and did affect me, too, in indirect ways. Being colored, bisexual, and potentially genderqueer, you could say I'm cursed on several levels; a square peg in a round hole. Well, sites like soy helped me to realize how unique I am, yet at the same time, not alone, and have in fact convinced me that volunteering my time to progressive movements, maybe even becoming involved as a career, is something I wouldn't mind doing at all. The Juarez femicides... rape culture...

Anyway, sorry, that is my ramble and in no order other than straight from my random thoughts. I could have written a lot more, but didn't want to derail the topic or turn others off too much. Again, there is so much I'd love to discuss, learn, and share when it comes to sex, gender, and culture, but we're only human, so I'll save them for another time and place.
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Old 06-17-2013
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Default Re: Feminism & the Disposable Male

Thank you for your reply Niav

Quote:
Reading through your response, RS, I see another angle that I think should be addressed: the underlying idea that females are inherently the weaker sex, thus should not be harmed in any way, shape, or form,whilemalesshould bestrong,beableto takea beating, since,well, what doesn't killyou only makes you stronger. Imagine the blow to a man's ego if he were prepared to fight someone of roughly equal status, same sex, right then and there, when the other guy looks him up and down and says in a patronizing tone, 'Nah, you're not even worth being hit like a man' and then walks away casually. Now, imagine being seen that way from the time you were born, seen and treated not quite as equal as a man, but maybe slightly better than having the status of a child. Explaining how gender roles hurt males and females can be better understood using an example like this, and it's just one of the issues many feminists are fighting to erase. They're unfair to everyone.
I agree with you Niav. In the United States the Obama Administration passed legislation that now recognizes women's right to fight in combat roles they were previously prevented from. It appears to be an uphill battle but like AztecPrincess said, women were already risking their lives in the military proving the western stereotype wrong.

Quote:
but from what I've heard from both my parents, both the boys and the girls were able to and did get physically disciplined. Perhaps the boys more so, being boys and getting into trouble more often, but again - there doesn't seem to be any strong aversion to putting the girls in line if they got out of hand, either by mother or father. Your situation just seems like one where one gender used their privilege to their advantage to get what they wanted.
This is a perfect example of sexism. Males get hit more but it is treated as if it is their fault. Complete B.S. no offense. We got hit for stuff we didnt even do. The females didnt get hit by my pops for stuff they actually did do. I dont agree that they abused their priviledge but rather the adults in our family were extremely sexist. We had a modern Mexican family that blindly believed benevolent sexism was the same thing as respect for women and treated the bodies of male children as if it was trivial because we were male while drilling into us the severity of importance of respecting the body of a woman. My body is just as important as hers, but to say so meant you werent being a man. But if women want equality in the areas where men benefit from bias then men should have equality in the areas where women benefit from bias. Yet the existence of the latter is often denied and even suppressed.

Quote:
Is that the only example of male suffering that you have? Because it seems in Mexican culture, guys have several privileges over women that they also exploit shamelessly: the infidelity double standard, for instance. If I had a quarter for every story or statistic where a Latin American guy had a woman on the side, or hopped from bed to bed without much of a reaction from others, well, I'd have enough for a nice 18 year single malt scotch. If you've ever studied the theories of machismo and marianismo, you'll see that the general assumption is that women are the only ones capable of being 'pure', being morally superior and spiritually stronger; men can't help themselves if they cheat, get drunk, or abuse others, since it's in their nature. They're like children who need someone to take care of them, instead, and this is why so many women put up with crap and put the needs of their family first. Virility is a masculine property, encouraged for men, and the opposite for women.
Wow what a way to belittle my getting abused as a child. I can see where this conversation is going. I can merely give examples from my own life, but I think getting hit as a kid because I was a male is far worse than a female being able to be openly promiscuios. If having the freedom to have multiple boyfriends openly is the worst of your problems then dont bark up my tree cause we are not on the same level. And incidentally, I dont have the freedom to behave that way in my family either, not all males are spoiled that way.

Quote:
Uhm, as far as dating goes, I can see it both ways. While women might know immediately whether or not the guy has a chance, has the choice to reject him on sight, lead him on, etc, it's the man who has the power to choose who he likes, while women are practically the ones 'waiting' for the right one to come along. Sure, they can make changes to their looks, interests, dating environments, but in the end, they have to make due mostly with whatever comes their way. A guy can and is expected to ask whomever he is interested in out, while a woman who does the same might be seen as 'too forward' for many people's tastes. I don't have to play the waiting game and wait for that perfect woman to come along; if I wanted to, I could walk to a crowded mall and ask as many women as I'd like for their numbers and no one would say, 'what a tramp', and instead might be praised for being so brave and confident in myself. Rejection can happen to anyone, but for those who put themselves out there, I have nothing but admiration and respect for, because they don't have to.
I kinda disagree. Women have the option of setting whatever high standards they want on a guy because they know if they wait long enough one will come along. There is usually a surplus of men but none of them live up to whatever expectations the women sets so it gives the appearance that she is waiting due to no men available when it is in actuality self imposed.I remember as a male literally starving for interaction but I was never good enough to meet the ridiculous standards set by women, where as women would set expectations so high they would treat all the men around them as if none of us were good enough for her. She wasnt a victim of anything other than her own ridiculous expectations that made us as men feel worthless and inadequate. She was alone by choice where as we were alone due to being discriminated against. Yet benevolent sexism thrives here and like usual the guy is supposed to ignore his problems to instead treat the females problems as superior. (even if her own prejudices and stubborness is what is causing her to be alone) Why does she expect me to approach her anyway? She has benefitted from far more social interaction and social development so shouldnt she be approaching me instead??? and this doesnt even adress the issue of racial and ethnic prejudice which adds a whole extra hurdle to further complucate the matter.
That isnt equality. I want equality.


Quote:
There's so much more I could bring up, and I've learned so much in the past two years or so, discussing these issues with LGBT, feminists, and really, anyone who is aware of the problems. At first, I didn't see the whole picture, didn't really care, being male and 'unaffected' by what inequalities women faced, until learning that they didn't exist in some social vacuum and did affect me, too, in indirect ways. Being colored, bisexual, and potentially genderqueer, you could say I'm cursed on several levels; a square peg in a round hole. Well, sites like soy helped me to realize how unique I am, yet at the same time, not alone, and have in fact convinced me that volunteering my time to progressive movements, maybe even becoming involved as a career, is something I wouldn't mind doing at all. The Juarez femicides... rape culture...
If I asserted more men are raped in America than women, (by homosexuals at that) how would you respond?


http://www.aclu.org/blog/prisoners-r...n-rape-victims

Well while you are out there being "progressive" consider this: Male rape in our nations prisons from other men and even staff is still a human rights problem that humanitarian groups are fighting to resolve. Yet "rape activists" and the gay community pretend that this doesnt exist and remains silent. Homosexuals in prison rape each other and rape heteralsexuals as well. Yet no one feels sorry for the man. People feel sorry for women who are raped but when dudes get raped in prison then people act like it is their own fault cause he is a guy as well as a convicted criminal. Jokes about being in jail wearing kneepads or having a cellmate named Bubba who rapes him are culturally acceptable because man rape is not given the same seriousness as female rape. Likewise making remarks towards a homosexual is considered hate speech but homosexuals raping each other and raping heterosexuals in prison is ignored or becomes the target of jokes. Why doesnt the homosexual community speak out against the homosexual predators in prison whom have attracted the attention of humanitarian organizations?
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Dont assume that when people speak of the sacrifices they've made that they are speaking of self sacrifice. The wolves here are disguised as sheep and the sheep are framed and slaughtered by the wolves.

Last edited by REMAINING STRONG; 06-17-2013 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 06-17-2013
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Default Re: Feminism & the Disposable Male

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Originally Posted by REMAINING STRONG View Post
If I asserted more men are raped in America than women, (by homosexuals at that) how would you respond?


http://www.aclu.org/blog/prisoners-r...n-rape-victims

Well while you are out there being "progressive" consider this: Male rape in our nations prisons from other men and even staff is still a human rights problem that humanitarian groups are fighting to resolve. Yet "rape activists" and the gay community pretend that this doesnt exist and remains silent. Homosexuals in prison rape each other and rape heteralsexuals as well. Yet no one feels sorry for the man. People feel sorry for women who are raped but when dudes get raped in prison then people act like it is their own fault cause he is a guy as well as a convicted criminal. Jokes about being in jail wearing kneepads or having a cellmate named Bubba who rapes him are culturally acceptable because man rape is not given the same seriousness as female rape. Likewise making remarks towards a homosexual is considered hate speech but homosexuals raping each other and raping heterosexuals in prison is ignored or becomes the target of jokes. Why doesnt the homosexual community speak out against the homosexual predators in prison whom have attracted the attention of humanitarian organizations?
How do you know that these prison rapists are "homosexuals"?
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Old 06-17-2013
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How do you know that these prison rapists are "homosexuals"?

This is kinda a dumb question. Although alot of men shy away from considering themselves homosexuals, when you are dating and having sexual relations with another man, that is homosexual/bisexual whether you are in denial or not to the fact.

Heterosexual men tend to rape women, pedophiles rape children and homosexuals rape men in the male community. Pretending that a man who engages in sexual activity with another man is no longer gay because it was a rape is denial at its finest. What next, say it isnt rape either? Cause we have conservatives making that sad attempt as well to avoid calling it what it is.
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Old 06-17-2013
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Default Re: Feminism & the Disposable Male

anyone that thinks prison rape is simply about satisfying sexual urges and not also about dominance and humiliation is the simple minded dummy here.
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Old 06-17-2013
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Default Re: Feminism & the Disposable Male

Your guess is as good as mine. Ive heard that people arent just raped but forced into relationships as well. I saw an interview of a guy that was a rapist and he did cite sexual interest as a motive although I respect the other reasons you stated above. I see no reason to argue with you nor degenerate this dialogue into disrespectful remarks towards each other. It is safe to say that it is most likely a combination of factors.

You have a valid point that I must acknowledge Kool Arrow. I found a Wikipedia article whhich states:

" In 2007, the US Supreme Court refused to hear the case of Khalid el-Masri, who had accused the CIA of torture, including 'forced anal penetration', due to state secrets privilege. "

I seriously doubt these perpetrators had a sexual interest. (as if it matters)


The wikipedia article below cites that many male rapists in prison do not consider themselves homosexual.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priso..._United_States

However I find this to be men in denial out of machismo at its worst. Although they are performing non-recieving acts, they are still getting off on a male. If I dont have sexual activity I dont go and have sex with just anyone to recieve pleasure. Im heterosexual and I doubt I could get off on a male. Many men interviewed have admitted that prison has caused them to begin finding men attractive sexually when initially they had no sexual attraction to men. This demonstrates a sexual attraction as a factor.

This thread has gotten off topic from the observation the lady in the video made that SOME (not all) feminists have compromised their legitimate fight for equality with the concept that men are disposable while the woman is of value.
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Old 06-18-2013
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Default Re: Feminism & the Disposable Male

Quote:
Originally Posted by REMAINING STRONG View Post
Thank you for your reply Niav
No problem!

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Originally Posted by REMAINING STRONG View Post
I agree with you Niav. In the United States the Obama Administration passed legislation that now recognizes women's right to fight in combat roles they were previously prevented from. It appears to be an uphill battle but like AztecPrincess said, women were already risking their lives in the military proving the western stereotype wrong.
^There are still misconceptions over feminism, like it's only for white women, or they're man-haters, which is like saying anyone who supports Chicano rights wants to take back 'Aztlan' or 'expel Europeans'. That's absurd. Feminism is about seeing how one group of people's issues affects others. It's about caring for your fellow human beings. I'm not a woman, but that doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't care what happens to them since it doesn't directly affect me. We're all connected.

Not all feminists are the same, and not all feminist circles or theories the same. For instance, I'm more concerned with issues involving women of color, non-straight women, and women in the developing world. There are also issues dealing with males and children I take into consideration. Others might focus on politics, the environment, or science.

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Originally Posted by REMAINING STRONG View Post
This is a perfect example of sexism. Males get hit more but it is treated as if it is their fault. Complete B.S. no offense. We got hit for stuff we didnt even do. The females didnt get hit by my pops for stuff they actually did do. I dont agree that they abused their priviledge but rather the adults in our family were extremely sexist. We had a modern Mexican family that blindly believed benevolent sexism was the same thing as respect for women and treated the bodies of male children as if it was trivial because we were male while drilling into us the severity of importance of respecting the body of a woman. My body is just as important as hers, but to say so meant you werent being a man. But if women want equality in the areas where men benefit from bias then men should have equality in the areas where women benefit from bias. Yet the existence of the latter is often denied and even suppressed.
Oh, I don't disagree at all with this: the double standards when it comes to one sex being hit for something while the other would get off free, only because they're perceived as weaker and in need of 'protection'. There might have been a time and a place when a woman's body was seen as necessary to pass down the family line, but women's bodies are tough, and I don't think equal treatment is going to do anything extreme like produce an entire generation of deformed babies or create a huge drop in the human population. These norms, I think, are echoes of a sexist society that might have good intentions, but ultimately does everyone more harm than good.

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Originally Posted by REMAINING STRONG View Post
Wow what a way to belittle my getting abused as a child. I can see where this conversation is going. I can merely give examples from my own life, but I think getting hit as a kid because I was a male is far worse than a female being able to be openly promiscuios. If having the freedom to have multiple boyfriends openly is the worst of your problems then dont bark up my tree cause we are not on the same level. And incidentally, I dont have the freedom to behave that way in my family either, not all males are spoiled that way.
I'm not trying to belittle your experiences, just showing you there's a lot more to this issue than just you or me and our lives alone. You're emotionally invested in this discussion, but you're not the enemy: if you support gender equality, you're a feminist. I don't think it's fair that women who are raped, molested, or impregnated are the ones who take full responsibility for their situation, and seen in a much different light than if they hadn't been, as tainted, promiscuous, asking for it, etc. Which is worse, sexual assault or just assault? I can't say, never having really experienced either extreme, minus a few hard hits and coming close to full blown molestation twice, but I can say no sex has a monopoly on either, and that feminists are fighting to have their voices heard so we can help fight for their rights.

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Originally Posted by REMAINING STRONG View Post
I kinda disagree. Women have the option of setting whatever high standards they want on a guy because they know if they wait long enough one will come along. There is usually a surplus of men but none of them live up to whatever expectations the women sets so it gives the appearance that she is waiting due to no men available when it is in actuality self imposed.I remember as a male literally starving for interaction but I was never good enough to meet the ridiculous standards set by women, where as women would set expectations so high they would treat all the men around them as if none of us were good enough for her. She wasnt a victim of anything other than her own ridiculous expectations that made us as men feel worthless and inadequate. She was alone by choice where as we were alone due to being discriminated against. Yet benevolent sexism thrives here and like usual the guy is supposed to ignore his problems to instead treat the females problems as superior. (even if her own prejudices and stubborness is what is causing her to be alone) Why does she expect me to approach her anyway? She has benefitted from far more social interaction and social development so shouldnt she be approaching me instead??? and this doesnt even adress the issue of racial and ethnic prejudice which adds a whole extra hurdle to further complucate the matter.
That isnt equality. I want equality.
Will he? I know plenty of women who say it's almost impossible to find a guy who meets *every* one of their standards, so they eventually settle, or go long periods of time between relationships. A lot of women go into relationships seeing potential, they want to help a man change, grow, but it doesn't always work that way; he stays the same, she's miserable and wondering what she got herself into, and if she has kids, she's sort of stuck. It's one reason divorces are so high in the US, but far from being the only one.

Women don't approach since they don't have to; because of societal expectations, if one guy won't another will. Also, many are afraid of rejection, something many women aren't used to and take harshly. Then, we have the argument I made earlier of them being seen as 'too forward'.

And of course feminism focuses on female issues, after all, females overall do have a lot less privileges than males and gender equality is the end goal. It would be like expecting a black organization to include white issues, or a gay one to focus on heterosexuals, though, they might discuss them for all we know. Feminists realized a long time ago that they couldn't keep focusing only on the issues of white, middle class, western women, and that's where third wave comes in: to be more inclusive of women of color, lesbians, transwomen, the poor, etc. Wouldn't it be hypocritical for one movement to say they want equality for all women but only focus on the problems of a few? Well, many first and second wave feminists did, and in a few circles, there still is discrimination, also a hot button issue that's being discussed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REMAINING STRONG View Post
If I asserted more men are raped in America than women, (by homosexuals at that) how would you respond?


http://www.aclu.org/blog/prisoners-r...n-rape-victims

Well while you are out there being "progressive" consider this: Male rape in our nations prisons from other men and even staff is still a human rights problem that humanitarian groups are fighting to resolve. Yet "rape activists" and the gay community pretend that this doesnt exist and remains silent. Homosexuals in prison rape each other and rape heteralsexuals as well. Yet no one feels sorry for the man. People feel sorry for women who are raped but when dudes get raped in prison then people act like it is their own fault cause he is a guy as well as a convicted criminal. Jokes about being in jail wearing kneepads or having a cellmate named Bubba who rapes him are culturally acceptable because man rape is not given the same seriousness as female rape. Likewise making remarks towards a homosexual is considered hate speech but homosexuals raping each other and raping heterosexuals in prison is ignored or becomes the target of jokes. Why doesnt the homosexual community speak out against the homosexual predators in prison whom have attracted the attention of humanitarian organizations?
My first thought would be 'prove it!' followed by 'if it's true, then it's not widely known; they're not speaking up, and I probably have an idea why that is...'

I'm not sure it's fair to compare what goes on in prison with what goes on outside; it's a completely different context. Instead, compare men and women outside of prison, in prison, in the military, etc, since anything else is apples and oranges. Yes, that's an issue, and believe it or not, one that many feminists are fighting against (male rape, that is). Men are taught from an early age that they must be strong, masculine, not like women, so being gay, being the victim of sexual abuse, being in a vulnerable position and asking for help are considered taboo. Luckily, most of us don't have to worry about women gang-raping us at parties, being groped by strangers on a bus, or fearing being out alone at night.

What makes you think these men are all homosexuals? Believe it or not, circumstantial homosexuality is a lot more common than you'd think, especially in all male environments. I'm not saying there aren't gay men who are a part of these acts, not at all, but to use it to vilify gay men? Rape is about power and control more so than sexual pleasure, and prison is extremely hierarchical, survivalist, animalistic; anything goes.

Sexual orientation has nothing to do with who you date or who you ****; there are men who have been married and had kids who later come out as gay, and there are male prostitutes who sleep with other men out of desperation. It's about who you're attracted to. Sexual experimentation and fantasies involving the same-sex are very common, even with self-identified straight men... a lot larger than the statistics for gay male populations. Sexuality is fluid, complex, not something you can say to, 'Ha! He fucked a man! Homo! No ifs, ands, or buts!' Yet women are allowed to make out, sleep together, hold hands, etc and no one bats an eyelash or thinks twice. Women can be seen as bisexual, men can't, it's gay or straight up gay, and this is another issue LGBT are fighting for.

I won't get into the whole female objectification and 'support' straight men show for lesbians.
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Old 06-18-2013
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Default Re: Feminism & the Disposable Male

I find this subject very confusing.

And in saying that, I don't mean to be dismissing the seriousness of it.

But, I do know that as you grow older, you will find that you will make your way thru this and that you will find what you want to keep for yourself as part of your identity and what you want to throw away as part of someone else's.

A man is not disposable. And when he finds his worth - what he is worth to himself - the world will respect that.

The world will respect a man just as much as he respect himself - no more and no less.

and that's all I have to say about that
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Old 06-18-2013
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Default Re: Feminism & the Disposable Male

Niav & Chavela,

you both brought alot of insight to this discussion. Im grateful for the opportunity to read both of your replies.
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Old 06-19-2013
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Default Re: Feminism & the Disposable Male

Sorry guys I didn't read your replies, I wanted to comment directly on the video.
I don't know if I'll comment on everything,

*note: My comments are based on Western Occidental culture. I don't know enough about other cultures to be able to comment on them.*


Quote:
When it comes to the well being of other, they come first, men come last. This is just the way it has always been. [...] Humans have always had a dynamic of women and children first.
To my knowledge, only very, very recently in western societies can we see some bits of evidence of what she is saying, more often in fictions (movies and novels) than in reality.

The image, for example, of the brave and loving father letting his hungry children and wife eat while he is forced to fast is only that, an image, and a very recent one at that.

A better - and funnier - description can be found in Chris Rock's bit about the big piece of chicken.

Historically men have always had the priority when it came to eating, and in societies characterized by food insecurity and/or scarcity for centuries, that's a big deal.
Parents first, children last.
Father first, then wife, then sons, then daughters.
Historically, if a child dies you just make another one. If the mother dies, you find another one to have children if you need to, if not so be it. If the father dies, the family starves.

Only very recently, in societies of material and food abundance do we see children being valued enough to come first, and the romantic image of the father sacrificing for his wife and kids appears.
But make no mistake, in poverty pockets where food is not guaranteed, you can bet that father eats first on most days.


Other than food, even in situations of material abundance, say in noble and royal families, male well-being always came first too. Men had the bigger better throne, men openly had scores of concubines and mistresses, men could rule (extremely few cases of female rule and when it happened, it was only by default: because the man had died.), etc.


Quote:
The 93% workplace death gap has to be evidence of this.
Nope, it doesn't.
It's an interesting fact that deserves attention, but it doesn't logically lead to the previous conclusion.




Quote:
I keep hearing that femaleness is always undervalued by society and maleness is preferred. I've always contended that it's the exact opposite. The feminine is usually intrinsically valuable, simply because women are the limiting factor in reproduction.
Although it can make sense, the facts on the ground show otherwise: female foetuses are disproportionately aborted, not male.
Where it applies, the woman's family has to pay the dowry, as she is understood to be a burden.
For centuries and until very recent times, the Catholic Church attributed extremely negative features to women: the origin of sin, temptresses, seductive (not a good thing back then), etc.
The concrete examples abound.

The fact that women are necessary for reproduction doesn't lead to them being treated better or highly regarded.

If the group/clan/settlement lacked women, it simply got into contact with another group/clan/settlement, peacefully through alliances and intermarriages or forcefully by kidnappings or conquest.

Actually the necessity of not marring into one's own group lead to that long-lasting constant search for other groups to get into contact with.

The biological necessity of women historically hasn't lead to them being highly regarded, at all. Although it could be viewed as a logical consequence, it just hasn't happened.




Quote:
The level of importance a human settlement placed on the well-being of women and children reflected almost always how successful that settlement was.
I know of no archaeological or historical evidence linking the success of civilisations in history to the importance they placed the well-being of women and children.

The exception being, I think, our modern societies, where investments in "human capital" (education and health) and specific attention directed to children and women/girls are indeed linked with various measures of success.

Historically though, the most "successful" societies have been those that were able to complexify and stratify the way they functioned. And with stratification came, among other things, the genderized roles in societies, the negative connotations attached to women's assigned roles and the "extreme limits" being placed them.

Compare that to "unsuccessful" and "backward" societies where roles where much less rigidly assigned (so-called "hunter-gatherers" societies for example).



Quote:
This drive to keep women safe from all harms has often resulted in extreme limits being placed on women's mobility, their agency, their power to control their own lives all through history and in many cultures even today, I think it's telling that those cultures tend to be the most backward.
Agreed .. in today's world.



Quote:
That's the equation: one life more valuable than another, and the woman wins every time. So honestly is there any argument anywhere that women's humanity has always been held in higher regard by society than men's?
And she dares speaks of feminists being "simplistic" ...

Yes there are quite a lot of arguments against that broad general assertion applied to all of humanity since the dawn of time.

First you cannot equate preservation of life with higher regard.

Until very recently, for example, only nobles were allowed to participate in war and slaughter each other.
Were peasants held in higher regard? Quite the contrary, they were not worthy enough to fight and die in battle.

Many times it is more highly valued to die than to live.
In the example of the sinking ship or the burning building, men are supposed to save women's lives at the cost of their own not because they are worth less, quite the contrary.
Centuries of machismo has put the onus of courage, bravery and heroism solely on men's shoulders.
The man should die not because he is worth less, but because only he can be the hero. He is revered in death much more than the woman is revered in life.

It reminds me of the example of certain tribes where cannibalism occurred: only the worthy opponent would be eaten. Those who feared their death would be spared, as would the women and children. They get to live not because they are more highly regarded, but because they are weak, fragile and fearful.



Quote:
Even just the level of acceptance of male circumcision when woman genital mutilation was banned the afternoon we heard it existed
That just doesn't make any sense.

I don't know the meaning of male circumcision, it may vary from place to place and vary over time.
I know in some isolated cases it is the - painful - rite of passage for becoming a man, although today it is massively done as a medical procedure in the very first days of being born.

In the vast majority of cases (those done as an infant), it is painless and carries no consequence with regard to sexual pleasure later on in life.

Whereas female genital mutilation is specifically aimed at taking away sexual pleasure and making sex extremely painful to those women who suffered it.
This because of the view that women are immoral, sinful sexual creatures by nature.

Comparing accepting the first and banning the latter as evidence that women are more highly regarded is nonsensical at best.


The example of attending to every one of a girl's cries while leaving the boys is shaky at best, grossly inaccurate at worst.

Children in general were for a very long time not very much cared for by today's standards.
Families had quite a lot of them, the first borns would take care of their younger siblings while parents were working.
And even then, daughters were required to care for their brothers and "suck up" the hardships and not complain, whereas boys were usually more valued, for obvious reasons (you don't have to pay dowry when he gets married, he will bring home more income or work more on the fields when he is old enough, etc.).

Only very recently in our history are children in general so highly valued and cared for, both boys and girls.

Boys were told not to cry because they had to be strong, as men are supposed to be.
Girls were told not to cry because they had to endure silently and not bother the husband with petty complaints.


Only now do we give such importance to their every cry and possible discomfort.



I've stopped watching at about 11 minutes.

So far I can agree with bits and parts here and there, but her arguments are just terrible sometimes.

Sorry if I wrote too much.
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Old 06-19-2013
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Quote:
It reminds me of the example of certain tribes where cannibalism occurred: only the worthy opponent would be eaten. Those who feared their death would be spared, as would the women and children. They get to live not because they are more highly regarded, but because they are weak, fragile and fearful.
Miguelito I appreciate your sincerity but reading this left me wondering what kind of discernment you employ.

So according to your example, the male who is murdered and eaten is still treated as the oppressor and beneficiary and the women and children are the victims because they werent murdered and eaten but rather got to live?

I vehemently disagree. That old school western sexist ideology needs to end and the men in your example need to be seen as the victims they truly are while the women and children need to be stripped of their victim status and seen for how fortunate they actually were to live. Im looking at actions taken, not rhetoric.

I do not feel you have given anything close to the proper respect and credit for all the sacrifice, labor and bloodshed men had to suffer and endure that modern historians take for granted and ignore much like they regarded the sacrifice, labor and bloodshed women suffered in the past.

Although the lady does wander around in her argument, she asserts that modern feminism is being infiltrated by the notion of male disposability and you failed to even address the whole thesis for her video.

I remember an ex girlfriend telling me "I was just a sperm donor" before getting an abortion and ending our relationship. She completely dehumanized me before ending the life of a baby/fetus as if it was an object to throw away. I feel the notion of male disposability as well as fetus disposability is a concept that is being passed off as feminism when I was under the impression it wasnt. I think it is great that a woman spoke out and confronted this trend. Inequality continues to repackage itself and infect both sides of the aisle of gender.
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Old 06-19-2013
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Quote:
So according to your example, the male who is murdered and eaten is still treated as the oppressor and beneficiary
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.



edit: I watched the last 5 minutes. Time wasted.
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Old 06-20-2013
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Default Re: Feminism & the Disposable Male

Bro's b4 Hoes, and that's all I got to say about that.
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Old 06-20-2013
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Bro's b4 Hoes, and that's all I got to say about that.
you fool! You're not supposed to let bitches know about the blood oath we take at birth, to oppress broads every chance we get!
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Old 06-20-2013
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I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.
I dont feel Ive misread your quote but you are welcome to clarify. I agree with so much of what you wrote but this quote of yours didnt sit well with me:

Quote:
It reminds me of the example of certain tribes where cannibalism occurred: only the worthy opponent would be eaten. Those who feared their death would be spared, as would the women and children. They get to live not because they are more highly regarded, but because they are weak, fragile and fearful.
The way this is worded you would think the guy getting cannibalized was the beneficiary of sexism whereas the women and children who were spared were the victims of sexism. That is how you worded the above quote. This example you gave is a perfect example of the way men have been historically treated that she was attempting to explain. She asserted that historically it was the men who were expected to die and you attempt to refute her with an example that is exactly what she was asserting!

I respect the sincerity of your responses but I feel you are refusing to acknowledge and even scrambling to refute the assertion this lady made because is doesnt fit into the historical view advocated by modern feminists.

I give this lady so much credit for showing objectivity and I find it ironic that so many people are attacking her in their responses.
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Last edited by REMAINING STRONG; 06-20-2013 at 04:34 PM.
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  #24  
Old 06-20-2013
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Default Re: Feminism & the Disposable Male

CaliPac and KoolArrow please leave the thread if you both are going to make immature remarks towards each other.
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Old 06-20-2013
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Default Re: Feminism & the Disposable Male

no. You don't get to dictate what other members say on threads. Get the fuck out of here with that bullshit.
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