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  #1  
Old 04-26-2005
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Default "Major Players" of Soy who promote the Chicano Mov

I have questions in my head that I cant let go. So here they go........

MY DICTIONARY:
"Major Players"---- People of Soy who are extremely devoted to the Chicano Movement and condemn others for marrying out of race, not speaking spanish, working with government, etc.

THIS THREAD IS NOT MEANT TO CRITICIZE ANY PEOPLE OR BELIEFS THAT SOME SOY MEMBERS HAVE.

QUESTION 1
Is it purely coincidence that the "Major Players" of Soy who promote, eat, die, breathe and crap "Chicanismo" to the fullest are mostly if not all single males?

QUESTION 2
When the day comes when these "Major Players" of the Chicano Movement that take a hard line here on Soy, that they have a wife and kids, will they lighten up on their "Chicanoer than thou" beliefs?

QUESTION 3
When they find that "significant other" in their lives, will they be able to find a Chicana who holds the same exact values that they do and if not, will they hold their "significant other" to the same standards that they promote here on Soy?

QUESTION 4
With "QUESTION 3" comes the question of why arent there more females in the movement and if they exist, then why arent they lining themselves up with the "Major Players" of Soy?

QUESTION 5
Its been said that many that were in the Chicano Movement over the years went on to have families and unfortunately were forced to rethink their values and had to put food on the table and put "little Tavo" thru school so therefore they had to sometimes "conform to this white society". Which all begs the question of how hard is it to not only raise a family under such conditions but also to find peace with oneself and keep the chicano movement going?

QUESTION 6
Does living this "chicanoer than thou" life and the philosphies that come with it, does it prevent many of these "Major Players" of Soy from finding that "significant other"? And will it prevent them from finding that "significant other" in the future?

AGAIN, THIS THREAD IS NOT MEANT TO CONDEMN OR CRITICIZE ANYONE ON SOY, I JUST HAD QUESTIONS........

RESPECTFULLY YOURS

LatinoBoss and I am an observer who watches in solitude thru the TEChnology thats available to us for all of us to use whether we call ourselves mexican,latino, hispanic, or TEJANO.

PEACE..........
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Old 04-26-2005
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"chicanoer than thou"
i always used "browner than thou" or "browner than you" but it works the same. Anyways my point i do not think this is negative it is simple a percieved idead of a way to define these individuals. and by someone that fit's into this catagory i believe that they have no right being upset being put into a catagory that they dislike because they do the same.


anyways to the real reason i am posting. the whole point of answering question 4. it is because the chicano movement is just that a chicano movement. I have read a lot of readings from women who were active in the chicano movement and had issues because of the sexist mantality of many of the men. out of all the civil right groups it is sad to say only the puerto rican's got it right, the young lords. they were the only group to incorporate woman's rights into the constitution. we have pushed away women because we have not given them the respect and the voice they deserved. now how they are percieved now i do not know. but this is from my studies on the movement during the 60's. if you would like i can try and get articles and the writers who discuss these for you but not tonight, it's already one in the morning. and i have to get up early to try and sell my books back to the school and try to get a little money. because if you wait too late they really rip you off. book cost you $200, sell back $15. it blows,
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Old 04-27-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestino
anyways to the real reason i am posting. the whole point of answering question 4. it is because the chicano movement is just that a chicano movement. I have read a lot of readings from women who were active in the chicano movement and had issues because of the sexist mantality of many of the men. out of all the civil right groups it is sad to say only the puerto rican's got it right, the young lords. they were the only group to incorporate woman's rights into the constitution. we have pushed away women because we have not given them the respect and the voice they deserved. now how they are percieved now i do not know. but this is from my studies on the movement during the 60's.
So Solitude..........since you really didnt address any "question" ( and their were a few to choose from ) what about QUESTION 4? I have to wonder where are those females that support the Chicano Movement? What exactly is a womens role in the "Movement"?

And what about QUESTION 6? Do you.........Solitude/Perez think that being so firmly entrenched in the movement (or as you say " It is just I am trying to take chicanismo sincerely and not half ass" ), hamper your ability to meet a "significant other" because of your beliefs? And how can you explain the "Major Players" of Soy mostly being single males? Or isnt it possible that you havent been getting PMed by some of the lovely ladies from Soy asking to learn more about the movement and how can they join?

Do tell Solititude...........
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Old 04-27-2005
Celestino Celestino is offline
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i really don't want to take this off on tangents solitude. simply put i have my opinion on people that i consider "browner than thou", and you have your opinion about people who say they are chicano and do a "half ass" job (i think that is how you put it, don't want to incorectly qoute you)


anyways latino boss. I am going to my ethnic studies class (intro to Latinos) and i can get a few papers from my teacher or books that you might want to look into. I do know for a fact that there are some intersting things in the book.

Chicana Lesbians: the Girls our Mothers Warnerd Us About. by: Carla Trujillo

but i will try to get a few articles. and solitude and anyone else out there the questions is not how he said something or how he labeled or associated a term with you. but what he is asking. so don't avoid the question, because i am curious to the responces you guys have to them because they are very well thought out questions.
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Old 04-27-2005
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There is a time and place for everything!!
Right now at this time I am choosing to enjoy the humor in LatinoBoss post!! LMAO!!
Am I the only one appreciating the sideways jabs here??? lol
Very good post LatinoBoss
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  #6  
Old 04-27-2005
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Default Re: "Major Players" of Soy who promote the Chicano

Quote:
Originally Posted by LatinoBoss
QUESTION 3
When they find that "significant other" in their lives, will they be able to find a Chicana who holds the same exact values that they do and if not, will they hold their "significant other" to the same standards that they promote here on Soy?

QUESTION 4
With "QUESTION 3" comes the question of why arent there more females in the movement and if they exist, then why arent they lining themselves up with the "Major Players" of Soy?
I can answer question 3 and 4.

I have met a lot of chicanas (I think there are more women downer than men) who are down, but here's where a majority fall in a few of these categories; they're single and don't want to date anyone bc they think all guys are pigs bc they go for the "bad boys" especially the bad boy chicano (some girls get turned on by someone who know their history and culture , party girls, have a bf and are already engaged, married, or single but have kids bc they married the "bad boy" chicano and he turned out to be an ass. I guess why I'm not really getting these females is bc now, I go to powwows don't really see chicanas, but native girls, but even then I get nothing bc I think the ladies freak bc my land lady's kids follow me. Practically these women go into the same categories as the women on top.

Not sure if I count as a "major player" when my beliefs are mix with Chicanismo, Indigenismo, Indigenista (two different things.), Mexicayotl with Mayan Philosphy and native ways...
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Old 04-27-2005
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The rest of the questions I have no idea how to answer bc they sound like they came from the mouth of someone who got high. Also, what is "Chicanoer than thou" beliefs?
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Old 04-27-2005
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Tec, its refreshing to see what I call one of the "Major Players" answer my posts especially since I might have created a thread at the wrong time due to some of the other "Major Players" being on vacation or perhaps they are fighting the enemy on that other site.

Tec I do call you a "Major Player" simply because you provide good information for those that seek it. The others sometimes do as well and that to me labels all of you that promote the "chicanismo lifestyle" as "Major Players"

I dont buy the bad boy theory you speak of because all of us "nice guys" go thru that. To say that the chicanas are "more downer then men" I would agree with that. Women are more passionate then us men. I have also met the ones who "hate men". Its not fun at times but maybe they have their reasons. Us men can be unreasonable at times.

I sit back and I see that most of you who live out your beliefs are very critical of certain issues and people here on Soy and I have to wonder for example the movie industry:

1. Can you watch 2fast2furious without condemning Eva Mendes for falling for the white guy.

2. Wild Wild West..... Now why did Salma fall for Will Smith?

3. Maid in Manhattan.... another one Jlo falls for a white man and a republican at that.......say it aint so........

Music is another example. How far do you take your "chicanismo"? Duets with JLo and black hip hop stars. Do you listen to their music or do you primarily stick with "Fat Joe"? Oh wait is he really a follower of the Chicano Movement? Heck even Thalia married Tony Mottola head of Sony Records. Think Mr. Mottola even cares about the Chicano Movement?

My point is the wonderful and lovely ladies that we are exposed to on Soy and offline watch these movies and listen to this type of music and ARE NO LESS CHICANA FOR IT, but it appears to me that your standards for a chicana are quite high. As well they should be. But doesnt it make it a very straight and narrow path for them to stay on?

I would love to hear from the older folks here on Soy that metamorphised in time from an observer to the present state of Tec and on to having a wife and kids. Did the intensity of "chicanismo" in your life contine? Did you find a mate that shared your beliefs? How much did it change when you had a family? Share a view on an issue that you once had and compare it to your feelings on that same issue today.

I would still love someones idea of the role of women in "chicanismo" so any male, female, mexican, latino, hispanic or TEJANO take a shot at it.

By the way........

Celentino......... Chicana Lesbians? lol.......but any info would be appreciated. You brought up a major criticism of "chicanismo" and the role of women being not as respected as they should be in that lifestyle.

DD..... I can just visualize that lovely smile of yours. Glad to make you smile.

mida...... sideways jabs? who me?
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Old 04-27-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LatinoBoss
Music is another example. How far do you take your "chicanismo"? Duets with JLo and black hip hop stars. Do you listen to their music or do you primarily stick with "Fat Joe"? Oh wait is he really a follower of the Chicano Movement? Heck even Thalia married Tony Mottola head of Sony Records. Think Mr. Mottola even cares about the Chicano Movement?
[blonde moment] Isn't Fat Joe Puerto Rican?? [/blonde moment] lol

Thalia is not Chicana so why should Mr. Mottola give anything about the Chicano movement?

Why should Chicanos give anything about about JLo? She's not Chicana either. Let her peoples worry about her.

Sorry, just had to throw this in here. Carry on.
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Old 04-27-2005
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Originally Posted by girly
Quote:
Originally Posted by LatinoBoss
Music is another example. How far do you take your "chicanismo"? Duets with JLo and black hip hop stars. Do you listen to their music or do you primarily stick with "Fat Joe"? Oh wait is he really a follower of the Chicano Movement? Heck even Thalia married Tony Mottola head of Sony Records. Think Mr. Mottola even cares about the Chicano Movement?
[blonde moment] Isn't Fat Joe Puerto Rican?? [/blonde moment] lol

Thalia is not Chicana so why should Mr. Mottola give anything about the Chicano movement?

Why should Chicanos give anything about about JLo? She's not Chicana either. Let her peoples worry about her.

Sorry, just had to throw this in here. Carry on.
Lets not leave out Salma. She is not pure mexican. My point was......that if our chicanas listen to this music.....and you know many do........isnt it against "chicanismo" to support them by buying their music and watching their movies? So what does say a "Major Player" do when that type of music is played in the car? Turn it off? Wouldnt that kind of turn off the chicana?

Whose blond moment? j/k

by the way....I am graying.......lol
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Old 04-27-2005
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I some what get what you're saying. It was my blonde moment by the way. lol

A "major player" can be as hardcore as he wishes to be but even he can't avoid getting caught up or conforming to some degree to his enviornment whether he realizes it or not. We have all conformed to a point and that is a reality. There is no point in being in denial.

I'm not saying that all these "major players" are hypocrites but alot of them are. They talk the talk as if they are communicating to us from inside a bubble where today's society can't touch them or they don't have to touch it. It's very unrealistic.

Man there are so many things to worry about within our community besides interracial relationships. Gangs, drug addiction, poor education, broken families, financial hardships, poor medical care..the list can go on and on yet these "major players" sit behind a computer and cry about how dare a Chicana marry a white guy. So dissapointing.

Like I said I'm not saying all of them are like this but some come to mind.

Edit:: Sorry if I strayed off topic....Again.
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Old 04-27-2005
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i initially believed this trend was about making fun of "chicano than thou"s by saying they dont have women or sex so they get radical.
ur family questions are very good and worhty of research but im not that old to anwser them.


as far as women they have the same role as men. no more no less. i believe what ur getting at is how do women fit in regard to patriarchy. but thats a problem both chicanas and chicanos need to address.

celestino made a great point but that was the problem of all movements and still is. how do u deal with patrarichy and when? most revolutionaries and civil rights leaders put it on the back burner and wanted to deal with it after succeeding.

thankfully times have progressed and all the organizations i have been apart of that dealt with promoting chicana/o education, immigration rights, and so on were lead and primarly staffed by women.

so i have a question is there a feminization of the movement, today, or is it still male dominated?

keep in mind i didnt say patrarichy was gone.

i finish up by saying women are NOT our maids, cooks, cleaners, etc.
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Old 04-27-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zapatasbloodjv
i initially believed this trend was about making fun of "chicano than thou"s by saying they dont have women or sex so they get radical.
Sorry if that impression was given. I usually sit on the sidelines as an observer and noticed that the common trait was single males are the Major Players here on Soy in promoting a lifestyle that many see as radical. But I would imagine in their eyes christianity is seen as radical and a lifestyle that no "Major Player' wants anything to do with.

Chicanismo has got to be a very tough life to live. Even in the bible the man is head of his household. The undisputed spiritual leader of his family. So why cant this happen in chicanismo? So why do many females not join the movement? I have stated earlier (although my opinion only) that women possess more passion then men. So why dont they dive in like the "Major Players" of Soy have? I find it hard to believe that these women if they do exist, havent found this website. Maybe our "Major Players" could invite ones they know offline to join us at this site. It would be interesting to hear their point of views.

But maybe....just maybe there arent really that many and as you say zapatasbloodyjv, that has always been a problem in all movements.

thanks for your thoughts zapatasbloodyjv........
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Old 04-27-2005
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Quote:
I get what you're saying. It was my blonde moment by the way. lol A "major player" can be as hardcore as he wishes to be but even he can't avoid getting caught up or conforming to some degree to his enviornment whether he realizes it or not. We have all conformed to a point and that is a reality. There is no point in being in denial.
If that is a blonde moment then I will be dyeing my hair blonde.

The reality is that we all sellout to some degree that is just how the system works and is designed to work.
The most hardcore ones still live with mommy and daddy.
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Old 04-27-2005
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Okay Okay.........I DID HAVE A BLONDE MOMENT......

Girly I never seen your second post.......never seen it but responded to zapatasbloodyjvs post. geez.......... how the heck did I do miss it?


then again.......you are so so right. We all conform be it a little or alot. And someone I admire once told me this. Never let a women come between you and your beliefs/God. I did once and it cost me plenty.

But I see these "Major Players" and they stick to their guns and dont bend for no one. I just wonder in their case, will they ever find happiness? And is it all worth it to degrade others for their choices in their own beliefs ( marrying out of race ), whilest they themselves have trouble finding a chicana who embraces the movement with as much as passion as the "Major Players" themselves?

Great post Girly.........
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Old 04-27-2005
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Happiness is different for each person, so yes they have found it.

A true revolutionaries life is a very lonely one.
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Old 04-27-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LatinoBoss
1. Can you watch 2fast2furious without condemning Eva Mendes for falling for the white guy.

2. Wild Wild West..... Now why did Salma fall for Will Smith?

3. Maid in Manhattan.... another one Jlo falls for a white man and a republican at that.......say it aint so........

Music is another example. How far do you take your "chicanismo"? Duets with JLo and black hip hop stars. Do you listen to their music or do you primarily stick with "Fat Joe"? Oh wait is he really a follower of the Chicano Movement? Heck even Thalia married Tony Mottola head of Sony Records. Think Mr. Mottola even cares about the Chicano Movement?

My point is the wonderful and lovely ladies that we are exposed to on Soy and offline watch these movies and listen to this type of music and ARE NO LESS CHICANA FOR IT, but it appears to me that your standards for a chicana are quite high. As well they should be. But doesnt it make it a very straight and narrow path for them to stay on?

I would still love someones idea of the role of women in "chicanismo" so any male, female, mexican, latino, hispanic or TEJANO take a shot at it.

Celentino......... Chicana Lesbians? lol.......but any info would be appreciated. You brought up a major criticism of "chicanismo" and the role of women being not as respected as they should be in that lifestyle.
I don't know where to start or what to do. No offense. The good thing is you have questions. Not sure where to start. Practically what I call you guys (mentality) Latinos.

You have very bad examples:

I'm not sure what Eva Mendes, but that movie sucked. It looked like a direct to video type of movie especially the computer animation on the cars. Plus my ex roommates and I just laughed at the movie bc that main white guy looked like he was going to kiss Tyrese every 20-30 mins. LOL. Besides, that movie took place in Puerto Rico.

I don't think you seen the movie Wild Wild West from beginning to end bc if you watched the end, you would've seen she was married and goes with her husband does not go with Will Smith. Besides, she has no native blood and that movie sucks.

JLO is Puerto Rican and last time I checked, they voted Republican ever since the four independentistas (incase you don't know who they are, they are four puerto ricans who tried to assassinate Harry S. Truman and were arrested.).

Fat Joe just sucks. I liked Big Pun, but Fat Joe just doesn't nod my head.

Thalia has no interest about the Chicano Movement.

We call these Hispanics for their Spanish pride. None on native.

I think you been watching too too much main stream stuff that you can't tell the difference nor know what chicanismo is about.

Also, I never post anything how my "perfect" woman should be like. Plus I think you have this weird idea that we are robot-like or militant. I like women who make me laugh, smile, and have intelligent conversations. I think it's funny your assumption and you believe there's only one Chicanismo. There are many levels. All levels are correct. If you know your Chicano history, you would know that at the early stages it's about basic cultural. The goal of the Chicano movement was to go back to a way of life before White and that would go to before the conquest. The very last level is indigenismo. I don't know how many old chicanos you ever talked to, but Jose Montoya talks about how the Lakota told them they were indigenous and that the Lakota will teach them their ways if they go back to ours. In history books, this is consider the "downfall" bc our people were divided. Some didn't want to go that path bc they saw indigenas as savages or the way of life is completely different than modern society which is white society. When the chicanos brought the first danzantes from Mexico to the US and learned the dance, that's practically how the Chicano Movement ends and what I like to call the Xicano Movement began which is a bit underground.

I have friends who found around the way around the system to provide for their families and still be for the movement. A friend is willing to hook me up. No, it's not welfare or food stamps, but real money and it's all legal. If our people really cared about the movement, there is ways to not work with the system. I know people who found a way around the whole tax thing that people have once a year.

The best way to experience Chicanismo is living it.

Women and their roles, I think I will speak about that for another time. What I will post next time is something that opened my eyes a lot more.

What I'm going to recommend you to learn some history before you argue with me.
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Old 04-27-2005
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I've started a post awhile back with the title "You're part white too" and therein I defended the concept of chicanas and chicanos marrying someone other than their own kind. I stated that we can't control other chican@s and their actions and as long as they raise and instill chicanismo into their kids to keep the culture alive, I personally see no problem with it. The kids will still be Chicanos and the community would still see them as such.

For us guys, I think its sort of difficult to find a good Chicana because most of us denounce the Catholic Church and no longer practice it anymore. Most females, even if they are down ass Chicana revolutionaries still remain to be Catholic. It may be generalizing but it is somewhat the truth. The women hold onto the Catholic faith stronger than the males do, for what reason? I do not know. I don't know if some other males hate Catholicism as passionately as I do, but I refuse to go into a relationship knowing the female is a Christian in any form or fashion.

and LatinoBoss, Salma is not Mexican in any form or fashion, maybe her driver's license says she is but other than that, she has no Mexican ancestry whatsoever.
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Old 04-27-2005
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Originally Posted by tecpaocelotl
Quote:
Originally Posted by LatinoBoss

My point is the wonderful and lovely ladies that we are exposed to on Soy and offline watch these movies and listen to this type of music and ARE NO LESS CHICANA FOR IT, but it appears to me that your standards for a chicana are quite high. As well they should be. But doesnt it make it a very straight and narrow path for them to stay on?
I think it's funny your assumption and you believe there's only one Chicanismo. There are many levels. All levels are correct.
Okay let me clarify myself because you were not the only one to make the assumption that I was attempting to point out "only chicanas". I was attempting to use mainstream people that I know are listened to and are watched heavily by our lovely Soy ladies and those ladies offline that we come into contact with. I was not attempting to use the idea of a chicana leaving her own and running off with a non-chicano. Now the movies I chose could have given you that impression, but if I couldnt think of a mainstream movie that featured only the chicana and didnt have her running off with a non-chicano. And the musical artists, well in my area Thalia, JLo and Fat Joe get heavy airplay whenever they bust out a new CD. These are just a few of the artists that our ladies listen to.
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Old 04-27-2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tecpaocelotl
What I'm going to recommend you to learn some history before you argue with me.
And what I recommend to you Tec is to make sure someone is arguing with you before YOU begin an argument. I am not arguing about your ways or lifestyle. I had noticed a common trait amongst the "Major Players" of Soy and wondered why they were in fact mostly if not all single males. Just a question followed by other questions. Not an argument.

Tec, this reminds me of when I was young and in the cathlolic church. I was 14 and I wanted to be a priest. Then I met this girl. Mmmm yummy. And my thoughts on entering the seminary left me that day and never to return thank God. Seems like one of the hardships of chicanismo might be the idea that choloman shared in this thread. "A true revolutionaries life is a very lonely one". Well a priests life can be lonely unless they decide to uh.... well we wont go there.

Tec it just appears to me that many of the "Major Players" in here are single male and it might have something to do with their beliefs being a touch on the radical side. And then once wife and kids enter the picture I have to wonder if Soys "Major Players" will keep up the fight?

Again Tec, I am not arguing or even criticizing your beliefs, I just happened to notice a pattern.

oh by the way....... good call on the Wild Wild West movie. I bought the tape and watched the first 20 minutes and the tape broke. Took it back and got my money and realized what a awful movie it was. Now if they had used Salma in that movie more then they did... I would go back and buy the DVD.
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Old 04-27-2005
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You wanted to be a priest. Me too, but I was a few years younger than you. Same thing happend. LOL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LatinoBoss
oh by the way....... good call on the Wild Wild West movie. I bought the tape and watched the first 20 minutes and the tape broke. Took it back and got my money and realized what a awful movie it was. Now if they had used Salma in that movie more then they did... I would go back and buy the DVD.
I would recommend you From Dusk til Dawn. The movie sucks, but the few mins that Salma is on, she's hot.

When I'm not talking about the past or our culture, I'm a movie critic. Mostly negative reviews.
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Old 04-27-2005
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QUESTION 6
Does living this "chicanoer than thou" life and the philosphies that come with it, does it prevent many of these "Major Players" of Soy from finding that "significant other"? And will it prevent them from finding that "significant other" in the future?



I thought you were implying that the "major players" were such because they never get laid
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Old 04-27-2005
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whether salma, thalia, and jlo are mexican is not the issue here. The issue is that people like salma, thalia and jlo are a very strong influence among chicanas. Just like black or white artists/athletes are a big influence among chicanos.

You don't have to be chicano or chicana to have a strong influence. Sadly, we do not have enough chicano rolemodels so that the youth has someone to look up to. So they settle on mainstream people like jlo. Who are not mexican/chicano or even come close.

The question now is, are these movie influences a cause for concern?
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Old 04-27-2005
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So being born and raised in Mexico (Salma) isnt enough to qualify someone as Mexican???

What is then???
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Old 04-27-2005
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About growing up around hardcore Chicanos in the movement - I have found that they take life real serious - much more seriouly than I wanted to take it when I was a teenager. So, I shied away from that type of Chicano, and gravitated to the more fun-loving "bad-boy" Chicano.

As I grew older, I found that the wives of the serious ones who I had dismissed were the ones that I now envied. Their husbands came home after work, and grew-up with the times, while my husband "the bad-boy" did not. Altho, now they were not really active in the movement, having to support the family and do other things, they at least took their families to the traditional outings, to church and stayed together as a family. While my "bad-boy" took me to these things, I had to mostly fend for myself and the kids, while he went off with his friends to get drunk or flirt with the young women.

The serious Chicano took his responsiblity of husband and father seriously, while the "bad-boy" Chicano did not. I am not saying this is the case in all instances - but only relating what happened in MY life and in MY observances.
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